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Mafia

Moderated by: Speed Bike Pro

171 discussionrant thread

Posted April 29, 2013 by `Roxas`

Is the town not getting their points for winning? I think that's kind of bullshit.

There are 75 Replies

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I would like some points. Not our fault the Mafia didn't know how to use their packs and then role claim.

April 29, 2013
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Speed Bike Pro
 

I'll leave the point decision thing to Roxas.

April 29, 2013
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Trever Leingod

No points will be given or taken away from any players.

April 29, 2013
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`Roxas`

Is the town not getting their points for winning? I think that's kind of bullshit.


I agree. I'm asking that white lancer give each town member that was part of this game, including those townies that were killed 2 points. If he ok's this I will add the points to each member before the Game 17 Redux starts so that it does not interfere with point earned the Redux game.

April 29, 2013
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chiefsonny
 

No points will be given or taken away from any players.

Look, I hate to be the... asshole, jerk, dick, whatever, but I do take some issue with what went down.

You shouldn't be able to just throw the game because things aren't going your way. It'd be like a basketball team walking off the court because the other team's up by six and they don't think they can come back. It isn't good conduct.

I understand the feeling of getting dicked by the host. When I was on the cult/voodoo/whatever team ages back, we all got wiped out almost immediately. It sucked. But we didn't stop the game over it.

I think the Mafia members that revealed should lose a token few points, with the understanding that future incidents like this will be dealt with harshly.

April 29, 2013
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Count Dooku

And I'm not saying that because I have an issue with Chiefsonny, Kyon, or Bandit in particular. I just think this kind of behavior needs to be discouraged - harshly.

Otherwise the next time the Godfather dies at round 2, the Mafia can just quit because things didn't go their way.

We need to set a standard that says you don't just throw the game.

April 29, 2013
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Count Dooku

I think the Mafia members that revealed should lose a token few points, with the understanding that future incidents like this will be dealt with harshly.

I'm OK with this. It is a bullshit thing to do. But, even if everyone had played the best and we had gotten better luck, we seriously had 0 chance of winning. I think everyone will be happier in the long run.

April 29, 2013
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The Bandit

Also not in favor of town points... Lets just run a legit game and be done with it.

April 29, 2013
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Count Dooku

I think the Mafia members that revealed should lose a token few points


Role claiming is allowed.

But we didn't stop the game over it.


We didn't stop the game. The Host stopped the game. A game that should not have been allowed to start that way.

We could have played for at least 3 more day rounds until the town lynched all the Mafia.

Get your facts straight please. The 3rd Mafia never role claimed.

April 29, 2013
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chiefsonny
 

Role claiming is allowed.

It wasn't done out of any strategy or desire to continue the game. It was done to end the game.

I understand, you got a bad deal with Helius dying and the Assassin not understanding their role. But that doesn't give you the right to ruin the game because you're unhappy.

And frankly, you nearly did the same damn thing during aliens. You thought I'd screwed up (I hadn't) and you outed not only yourself as an alien, you outed Jo Nathan too.

Its piss poor sportsmanship.

Get your facts straight please. The 3rd Mafia never role claimed.

Oh yes, he was definitely going to continue after his teammates abandoned him.

April 29, 2013
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Count Dooku

Lets just run a legit game and be done with it.


So you're admitting the game was flawed. Why didn't you speak up during the game. Could it be because you were on the side that was benefiting?

April 29, 2013
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chiefsonny
 

So you're admitting the game was flawed. Why didn't you speak up during the game. Could it be because you were on the side that was benefiting?

I make no admission, I don't even agree with you. Complaining about '10 power packs' when you didn't even understand how they were given out (hint: not all at once!).

I just don't think we should be assigning points over forfeited games that end in the third round.

April 29, 2013
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Count Dooku

It wasn't done out of any strategy or desire to continue the game. It was done to end the game.


Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one.

April 29, 2013
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chiefsonny
 

Oh yes, he was definitely going to continue after his teammates abandoned him.

Even if Speed guessed him pretty quickly after the other two revealed, it's not fair to judge Bandit this way... he didn't seem to have any intention at the time of giving in.

April 29, 2013
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Trever Leingod

Even if Speed guessed him pretty quickly after the other two revealed, it's not fair to judge Bandit this way... he didn't seem to have any intention at the time of giving in.

The point being that continuing would have been utterly futile for him. It would have taken at least a dozen rounds to get him into a 1v1 situation for the win condition. I wasn't 'judging' him.

April 29, 2013
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Count Dooku

I just don't think we should be assigning points over forfeited games that end in the third round.


But's it's ok to take away points from games that were played?

April 29, 2013
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chiefsonny
 

But's it's ok to take away points from games that were played?

Punishment for denying everyone else points by stopping the game.

Seems fitting.

April 29, 2013
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Count Dooku

Even if Speed guessed him pretty quickly after the other two revealed, it's not fair to judge Bandit this way... he didn't seem to have any intention at the time of giving in.


And if the Host's had been doing their job and had read the last few replies by The Bandit and Kyon they would have seen they may not have understood the way the Skill set worked. Read The Bandit's replies in the Mafia thread. The last one says a lot.

April 29, 2013
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chiefsonny
 

Let's leave the sign up thread for that reason only, alright?

April 29, 2013
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`Roxas`

Punishment for denying everyone else points by stopping the game


The host stopped the game. But if it makes you feel better, I'll give you 3 of my points.(cry)

April 29, 2013
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chiefsonny
 

Even if Speed guessed him pretty quickly after the other two revealed, it's not fair to judge Bandit this way... he didn't seem to have any intention at the time of giving in.


You just can't bring yourself to admit that you put out a flawed one sided product can you.

Man up for Christ sakes.

April 29, 2013
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chiefsonny
 

I DEMAND A PIZZA PARTY.

April 29, 2013
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Female Alpha Wolf

I don't want your points. I don't want any points for this game, as I already stated above.

I want something done to discourage this behavior before it destroys future games.

Throwing the game because things aren't going your way should not be allowed.

April 29, 2013
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Count Dooku

I think the game was set up in such a way that the Mafia had a fair chance. The Mafia had problems that weren't the fault of the setup, in my opinion.

Helius was lynched for genuine suspicions, regardless of the game setup.

Chief and Bandit brought suspicion on themselves by trying to pull a Day 2 no-kill to save Helius. I think neither of them would have been on anyone's radar otherwise, and I don't think anyone suspected Kyon before he threw in the towel.

The breaking point definitely seems to be the Assassin's packs, but I'd chalk that up to miscommunication rather than the actual game setup.

MY pack would have helped the Mafia if it had been successful. And other packs in subsequent rounds would have prevented townies from voting, etc.

I don't know if my opinion might be different if I were on the Mafia's side, or maybe if I go read the Mafia thread, so I acknowledge that possibility. But looking at everything, I don't think the game setup really was bad.

And those are my $.02.

April 29, 2013
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Jo Nathan

Also, I think FAW is on to something.

April 29, 2013
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Jo Nathan

Throwing the game because things aren't going your way should not be allowed.



And making accusations you can't prove should not be allowed either.

The Bandit was right. You are a dick.

April 29, 2013
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chiefsonny
 

Personally I would have reminded the two Mafia and waited for the Assassins to make their guesses, but Roxas was following the typical 24 hour deadline so even if they were reminded, it's unlikely they would have made their guesses in time. This miscommunication could have happened even in a normal game that just had one person being the definitive Assassin.

What Jo Nathan said is essentially right - the problem was not the game setup, it was lack of communication.

April 29, 2013
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Trever Leingod

Jo Nathan got it right.

The Bandit was right. You are a dick.

And you're a child who won't accept responsibility for their own fuck-ups.

April 29, 2013
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Count Dooku

Like with any game, I feel it could have gone either way. It definitely didn't feel as overpowered on the Townies side like it was in that one game where i was Mafia... or I was watching... It was either or.

I thought the town might have been overpowered but then it was mentioned and I remembered that only 4 of the 12 get something, and it might be some crappy power.

We could have had something. I thought we had something special...

April 29, 2013
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Female Alpha Wolf

Dooku and chiefsonny, I think you two better settle down before a MafiaGate incident occurs. {:?}

April 29, 2013
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Trever Leingod

We could have had something. I thought we had something special...

Yes well a small minority feel entitled to ruin it for everyone without any accountability.

April 29, 2013
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Count Dooku

I think we should all move on and accept truce? What's done is done. A new game is being created atm and we just need to learn from our mistakes. It is what it is.

April 29, 2013
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Castrael

The packs were being rather fair if you ask me... you can see two Movie Goer packs were given out and so was an Outsider pack, which in turn ended up making Speed look like Mafia to Yoshi. The Mafia got the Trickster and Godfather sets on Night 0, the Hypnotist and Janitor Night 1, and two Assassins on Night 2. The town got three bad packs and the Mafia got none.

April 29, 2013
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Trever Leingod

The only way to settle this...

is to bring it to Maury.

April 29, 2013
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Female Alpha Wolf

Jeez. Was I the ONLY one that got a decent pack?

April 29, 2013
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Female Alpha Wolf

The biggest problem I have with it is that the mafia has no ability to eliminate roles. We gain no ground as the game moves forward, because any random asshole can still pick up a doctor or cop or spy kit. We also have no ability to determine who is who who, which eliminates all the strategy of our night kills, except in who we should protect. That's why I felt it was unfair.

April 29, 2013
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The Bandit

*except in who is protected

April 29, 2013
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The Bandit

Like I said in the main thread, I just think trying to involve everyone in a power role kills a lot of what the game is about.

April 29, 2013
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The Bandit

The biggest problem I have with it is that the mafia has no ability to eliminate roles. We gain no ground as the game moves forward, because any random asshole can still pick up a doctor or cop or spy kit. We also have no ability to determine who is who who, which eliminates all the strategy of our night kills, except in who we should protect. That's why I felt it was unfair.

This works both ways though :/ Killing one of you doesn't eliminate the possibility of another Janitor springing up. Or another assassin. The 'problem' applies to both teams.

The Mafia had far more powerful packs by comparison. The town just got really lucky in their use.

April 29, 2013
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Count Dooku

But you guys gain significantly more than we do from getting a kill. It's still a huge disaster for us, while it becomes much less of an issue for you.

April 29, 2013
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The Bandit

Also, I don't know why hosts insist on adding more luck elements to the game. Luck is bad, y'all.

April 29, 2013
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The Bandit

But you guys gain significantly more than we do from getting a kill. It's still a huge disaster for us, while it becomes much less of an issue for you.

Right, but if Helius hadn't overplayed his hand we wouldn't have had anything to go on.

If you guys had properly used the assassination (not blaming, just stating a fact) we'd have lost more people than we did.

The town ALWAYS gains more from getting a kill than the Mafia, that's how the game works.

April 29, 2013
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Count Dooku

Alright, we're good everyone. Do as you will with points, consider my request for penalty points withdrawn.

April 29, 2013
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Count Dooku

You're not listening to what I'm saying. : / I never suggested that was lost because of the way the game was structured.

But, even if everyone had played the best and we had gotten better luck, we seriously had 0 chance of winning.

I am saying that, even if the mafia had played it's best, we have no chance of winning, because the town is no longer affected by townie kills, while the mafia remains the same. You are gaining an advantage. We aren't. The mafia's power roles aren't as significant as the town's. By switching them around among players, you're giving the town a much bigger advantage than you are if you do the same thing for the mafia.

April 29, 2013
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The Bandit

Disagreement is over with :/ Lets start the game.

April 29, 2013
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Castrael

Chief and Bandit brought suspicion on themselves by trying to pull a Day 2 no-kill to save Helius. I think neither of them would have been on anyone's radar otherwise, and I don't think anyone suspected Kyon before he threw in the towel.
just wanted to note that I hardly even considered chief's no-kill vote when I was on the fence about killing him last night - I actually only noticed it in passing toward the end. It was the rest of his behavior that almost made me pay him a visit. In the end, I decided to err on the side of caution since (a) I also considered him a possible Governor (I was certain about the Commissioner already), and (b) the numbers were such that it didn't seem necessary to rush. I figured I was off the radar as intended.

April 29, 2013
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Pirate_Ninja

For what it's worth, I agree entirely with Dooku in this argument. It's clear that the mafia felt that they got the short end of the stick from the get-go and only put up with it until Helius died, which coincidentally took two rounds. That was the breaking point for the mafia and now here we are.

April 29, 2013
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Speed Bike Pro
 

No Cas... Let them continue...

They have to learn.

Also, sign ups arent' done yet.

April 29, 2013
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Female Alpha Wolf

Learn what? lol We're having a cordial discussion about a fucking game. People disagree sometimes y'all, it's not the end of the world.

April 29, 2013
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The Bandit

Yeah, but like you said, it's just a game. Need to get over it

April 29, 2013
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Castrael

Get over what? No one's mad. It's a discussion, not an argument. : /

April 29, 2013
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The Bandit

It was more of a disagreement than anything.

April 29, 2013
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Castrael

For what it's worth, I'm inclined to agree that the game balance was swung way towards the Town this time. I think the part of the game balance that's easy to forget is the ratio, and 14-4 is a huge deficit for the Mafia to overcome. That means that 10 people have to die before the Mafia even have a chance at winning, and that number goes up if even a single Mafia member goes down. That's five days if the Town miskills every single day, and it really doesn't put any pressure on the Town (the reason I wasn't worried about posting my Journalist article despite it probably outing the Commissioner was because I wasn't too worried about how the game would turn out).

As for points, I'm inclined to simply strike this game from the record (like we did with Xhin's multicolored Townie game a while back) and allow Roxas and Trever to start over.

April 29, 2013
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white lancer

I agree with Lancer. The game hasn't even ended and it wouldn't be fair if the Townies got the points, and the Mafia didn't.

April 29, 2013
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Castrael

As for points, I'm inclined to simply strike this game from the record (like we did with Xhin's multicolored Townie game a while back) and allow Roxas and Trever to start over.


As Executive Host are you going allow these Power Packs and Skill Sets to be use again before we can have another discussion about them

April 29, 2013
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chiefsonny
 

Considering the response they got, I doubt I will ever be implementing the Power Pack idea again.

April 29, 2013
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Trever Leingod

Okay. I have to at least commend Trever for bringing his idea up in the mod forum in advance, so that at least this idea wasn't completely out of the blue and at least he got some feedback. In hindsight, I do have to agree that the discussion would be better off if it had taken place here on this forum so that everyone could see (I wish I had remembered to move it here after Dooku's game). I know there were more comments I felt like I could make, but I was too busy at the time the issue came up (obviously not Trever's fault--I simply was hoping there would be another time to discuss them). I'm going to implement the following rule:

All hosts have a lot of freedom when it comes to the roles they want to introduce into a game, but if their ideas involve a significant shift in the game mechanics, it must be brought to the Mafia forum before implementation.

I want to maintain the freedom for people to come up with unique twists on the game, but it seems to cause problems every time it's implemented. The Halloween Game was the only significant shift to the game mechanics that actually ran through to completion (I think the only reason that one worked is that the ratio was so close from the start), and since all the others have resulted in problems, we need to curtail it somehow. This way, at least everyone who signs up will know what they're getting into, and hopefully we'll be able to catch any holes as a group that someone might miss individually.

April 29, 2013
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white lancer

As a addendum to the above rule: if someone introduces a twist to the game that the forum discusses, anyone who signs up for a game under those rules should be prepared to play through the game to completion since they know what they've signed up for.

^That's not aimed at anyone who participated in this particular game, but in the future, if we do have people who want to experiment with the game's structure and they take it through proper channels, I'd like people to respect the work they put into it by finishing the game even if it doesn't quite work as intended. Sound good? ^_^

Oh, and it's probably best if we wait at least a couple of games before anyone tries anything radical with the hosting--let's get some normal games in first.

April 29, 2013
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white lancer

That's not aimed at anyone who participated in this particular game, but in the future, if we do have people who want to experiment with the game's structure and they take it through proper channels, I'd like people to respect the work they put into it by finishing the game even if it doesn't quite work as intended. Sound good? ^_^

Thank you.

April 29, 2013
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Count Dooku

Sounds like an excellent addition to the rules, Lancer {y}

April 29, 2013
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Trever Leingod

As a addendum to the above rule: if someone introduces a twist to the game that the forum discusses, anyone who signs up for a game under those rules should be prepared to play through the game to completion since they know what they've signed up for.


I agree 100%. but in the game that just ended, no one was told that these new twist would be in the game.

Good rules by the way{y}

And as you have said and in Trever's defense, if the things he posted in the Mod forum had been posted here, then each of us could have decided if we wanted to play. I read the post in the Mod forum and even I was surprised.

April 29, 2013
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chiefsonny
 

Alright then. My thing is that I understand both sides. It's not fun to play on a team when you feel like the game is stacked heavily against you (and I've been in that situation multiple times), but at the same time it sucks to put in the work as hosts and not have it work out. I can deal with throwing in the towel in this particular case (though it's not my favorite thing to see happen) just because it was kind of an unusual situation, but I definitely don't want to see it happen very often, if at all.

April 29, 2013
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white lancer

(Because somebody has to be the mature one)

Roxas and Trever, thank you for trying to put on an interesting new twist on Mafia. Sorry it didn't work out, but you did a Hell of a job handling this why it was going.

Mafia, sorry you guys felt you were stacked against. I can see where you guys are coming from, and I don't blame you for throwing in the towel.

Townies, had a lot of fun playing with you guys, and even without the whole power pack twist, we would have been a great team.

Eeverybody, I know it sucks to have to start over, but remember that we all knew this game was an experiment coming in, and knew there was a chance it could fail. You have no cause to be angry for what you signed up for.

As far as points go, we have never given out points for incomplete games, and the only one who would have earned any was Dooku for single handedly taking out Helius without any power packs involved.

Dooku, let the points go. Not like you can gain any more ranks or earn anymore privileges.

April 29, 2013
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Feral

Dooku, let the points go. Not like you can gain any more ranks or earn anymore privileges.

... I didn't want points. I never asked for points. Not once.

I want(ed?) those who screwed up this game punished with the removal of a FEW of their points. To turn around your comment, it won't hurt Chiefsonny (49 points) to lose 4 for this incident.

I also don't appreciate you singling me out when several users agree with me while saying nothing of Chiefsonny's personal attacks against me.

April 29, 2013
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Count Dooku

(Damn DNS...)

I apologize, Dooku. I misread your reply. Disregard that stuff then. And I replied about you and chiefs spat in the mod forum.

April 29, 2013
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Feral

(Because somebody has to be the mature one)
Show Spoiler


we all knew this game was an experiment coming in, and knew there was a chance it could fail. You have no cause to be angry for what you signed up for.
except not really, no

we have never given out points for incomplete games, and the only one who would have earned any was Dooku for single handedly taking out Helius without any power packs involved.
thanks for the update, person who hosted that ga-whoops

April 30, 2013
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Pirate_Ninja

Probably jumped the gun in role claiming, I just thought this whole thing was fucking gay, though.



Sorry, Dookie and everybody else.

April 30, 2013
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Kyon

I would have preferred more balance in the Mafia ranks. We had a huge hurdle to overcome since there were only four of us. I messed up (I guess ... I'm not sure) on Round 1.

I kind of detest the packs as they were because it was incredibly difficult. I haven't read the Mafia thread before posting this, but there has to be allowance for some confusion. I mean the Mafia had two "green" members compared to the two "experienced" members. I'm counting Bandit as a green member despite him playing other games. It's just been a huge break between the games he has played and the ones he is now playing.

That being said... it might have been better to played a regular game. Discuss the pack idea with Mafia members while during the regular game so the bugs could have been worked out beforehand. This game was incredibly town-sided imo. So I'm glad its done.

As far as points, it's not fair to punish the majority because of a minority. And it's not fair to punish the minority because of the majority. So what I propose since this all went down hill fast is that no points are given. No points are taken.

We put the rule in place that you cannot throw the game; however, I'd like to point out that we do have an Appeals process. That should have been utilized. That's what its there for. If you disagree with an action, use it. That's my two cents.

April 30, 2013
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Helius

Okay I've been real busy the last few days and I come back and everything's in an uproar. Someone mind giving me the Readers Digest version of what happened?

April 30, 2013
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White Thunder

Never mind, skimming the threads does it for me.

April 30, 2013
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White Thunder

We put the rule in place that you cannot throw the game; however, I'd like to point out that we do have an Appeals process. That should have been utilized. That's what its there for. If you disagree with an action, use it. That's my two cents.

This. So much this. You still have the option to complain about the way a game is set up, but with these two corollaries:

1. If it's not a significant concern, please keep it to yourself until the end of the game. After the game is over, feel free to critique the game setup however you want (I certainly do), but we don't want to see the game threads bogged down by complaints about the game itself.

2. If it is a serious concern (e.g. you think the Host made a grave mistake), talk it over with that game's Host in private first so that they at least have a chance to explain their position. If you're not satisfied with their explanation, make a formal Appeal and take it up with me (I'm willing to recuse myself from any game I'm part of in order to resolve disputes). This is so the game won't be disrupted in the meantime for those who have no complaints. Bear in mind that if I find the Appeal frivolous, you could lose player points, so again, keep it to yourself unless it's a major issue.

Also, one more thing: personal attacks are unacceptable. This is a game, pure and simple, and it's meant to be a place where we can have fun together. Yes, it can get heated sometimes, but ultimately if you're making personal attacks on another player over this, odds are you're taking it too seriously. I'm currently reviewing this situation to determine what further action, if any, is required.

April 30, 2013
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white lancer

Remember when games were reset because I found things that weren't supposed to be found? That was fun for me. And then lasting 13 rounds for being such a huge focus the entire game.

Now it's just reset because of bad sportsmanship and role spoilers? Well I guess that's sort of similar to what I used to do, except no game breaking mechanics.

Good to know you gays are thinking about me. I laughed, I cried... someone died.

May 4, 2013
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LLight

Remember when games were reset because I found things that weren't supposed to be found? That was fun for me


You were the only one it was fun for.

Talk about bad sportsmanship, almost as bad as cheating.

May 5, 2013
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chiefsonny
 

:( that's what I said, but you only quoted the part that you wanted to twist the knife into.

May 5, 2013
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LLight

You're teaching me well.:)

May 5, 2013
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chiefsonny
 

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