Engines Aether Legend of the Lunar Priest NIFE Roadmap
Shatterloop Game Projects Deprecated Starwright
Saepes Mundi Other Projects Blog  

Mafia

Moderated by: Speed Bike Pro

discussionllights tactics

Posted July 10, 2013 by white lancer

Alright, I didn't want to get into this while the game was going because it'd be a major distraction, but I'm thinking of implementing the following rule:

Monitoring the Activities tab or using any other method to detect someone's presence on the site is against the rules. Posting information like this is forbidden and will result in a Host Kill; please also refrain from using this information privately.

The reason for this is that I think it's kind of an unfair tactic that also goes against the spirit of the game. LLight used it to out three Mafia members right off the bat, and I feel like playing as Mafia is already stressful enough without making it necessary for them to worry about how much time they're spending online/how many page refreshes they do. It takes what should be a chief Mafia advantage--the ability to communicate in a private thread--and turns it into a disadvantage. I also feel like Mafia should be a game of reading people, not data, and I really wouldn't want to play Mafia that way.

But those are just my personal thoughts. I don't want to make a rule if the rest of the players don't like it, so I'd like to hear other people's opinions.

There are 18 Replies


I agree with everything you've said. It's just completely unenforceable. It is harder to enforce than OOG communication by a long shot.

July 10, 2013
The Bandit

an unfair tactic that also goes against the spirit of the game


playing as Mafia is already stressful enough without making it necessary for them to worry about how much time they're spending online/how many page refreshes they do


It takes what should be a chief Mafia advantage--the ability to communicate in a private thread--and turns it into a disadvantage


Mafia should be a game of reading people, not data


Is it possible for someone to agree with something as much as I do with the quoted things? The answer, quite frankly, is no.

July 10, 2013
Speed Bike Pro
 

I agree with everything you've said. It's just completely unenforceable. It is harder to enforce than OOG communication by a long shot.

Well, it'd at least keep the tactic out of threads (and hopefully out of OOG as well--if it does happen OOG, I'd appreciate it if you'd save the logs and bring it to my attention!). Completely unenforceable if someone chooses to use this method for personal use, of course, but if this rule goes through, at least everyone will know that it's a tactic that is heavily discouraged (and that you're technically cheating if you employ it).

July 10, 2013
white lancer

Well, it'd at least keep the tactic out of threads (and hopefully out of OOG as well--if it does happen OOG, I'd appreciate it if you'd save the logs and bring it to my attention!). Completely unenforceable if someone chooses to use this method for personal use, of course, but if this rule goes through, at least everyone will know that it's a tactic that is heavily discouraged (and that you're technically cheating if you employ it).

This.

July 10, 2013
White Thunder

I also feel like Mafia should be a game of reading people, not data, and I really wouldn't want to play Mafia that way.

One thing I might disagree on is this because you're not just reading data, you're reading someone's behavior. If there were body language on the internet, then reading it would be the equivalent.

Might as well hide your online status from Skype, Facebook, and AIM too, because who knows, that could be used against you.

July 10, 2013
LLight

Might as well hide your online status from Skype, Facebook, and AIM too, because who knows, that could be used against you.

Yes, if you happen to be friends/contacts with Mafia players. That's a little bit different, though, for two reasons:

1. You don't have to be on a messenger/Facebook in order to play GTX0 Mafia, whereas you do on the site.

2. It's a lot easier to hide your presence on messengers while still being online.

Anyway, so far it sounds like most people are for the rule change. I'll leave this open in case other people have other thoughts, but if it stays as it is I'll go ahead and implement the rule.

July 11, 2013
white lancer

How are you going to enforce this?
The honor system?

July 11, 2013
chiefsonny
 

Not that it matters much that you can read a person in this way, but only if they're aware they're being observed, which changes the way you're playing considerably. It's also possible to hide your presence here if you understand how names are assigned in the people tab, so it's not that hard to come to GT and have no presence. I'm not sure how many people are aware of this method other than maybe Xhin, but it's also usable and abusable to go out of your way just to do it.

July 11, 2013
LLight

This is partially why I think doing the name-masking system would be of benefit at least to try. Even if people see that we're active on the People tab, they won't know who is who for sure (by writing style they will have hunches, but not much more than that).

For example, this is just an idea and I know it's not exactly what Feral probably had in mind, but:

If we were all assigned Smash Bros. characters to mask our identity, that could help play into the theme we have going. As in, everyone is randomly assigned a character from the game, and they use that as their name mask. I mean, people can take the idea from there and do what they want with it, but I think it'd be worth a shot, unless it would require too much effort.

July 12, 2013
Apollo Justice

Monitoring the Activities tab or using any other method to detect someone's presence on the site is against the rules



Are you saying that no one can use the Activity tab at all while playing the game. Or that they can not post what they see there in any Mafia thread or pass that information on to another active player.

Because I have news for you, When I sign in the first thing I do is check the Activity tab. I considered that part of my job as a admin. It helps me see if new people are lurking but not posting. I check it several time a day.

July 12, 2013
chiefsonny
 

Best option would just be to get Xhin to program in a block for it so that activity doesn't monitor mafia and adventure... That way it's completely out of the equation.

Xhin has known about this for a little while now (over a month at least) since LLight did it early on in Adventure Game 2 and I told Xhin about it then... Might be wise to simply pester him into doing something about it.

July 12, 2013
Redack

It's also possible to hide your presence here if you understand how names are assigned in the people tab, so it's not that hard to come to GT and have no presence. I'm not sure how many people are aware of this method other than maybe Xhin, but it's also usable and abusable to go out of your way just to do it.


I believe I'm aware of one way to manipulate it, unsure if it's the same way you know of though... I accidentally stumbled upon it once when someone asked why I didn't show up in it, which I didn't know I "wasn't" until they told me.

July 12, 2013
Redack

Well I don't know how long any of that would take, with Xhin busy with the revamp but as a quick fix I would suggest this.

If anyone post any information about players status (i.e time at the site)as seen in the Activity link in any Mafia thread while the game is in progress, they will be host killed and suspended for the next game.

Best option would just be to get Xhin to program in a block for it so that activity doesn't monitor mafia and adventure... That way it's completely out of the equation.


Using the People tab (the sick monkey button) or Recent Activity only shows who's on the site and how long. It does not show what forum (if any) that they are in.

July 12, 2013
chiefsonny
 

If anyone post any information about players status (i.e time at the site)as seen in the Activity link in any Mafia thread while the game is in progress, they will be host killed and suspended for the next game.

That's pretty much how it would work, chief. There's literally nothing I can do to enforce people using it on their own and not saying it to anyone. I'm also not saying that using the Activity tab while playing the game is forbidden. What this rule would be saying is that using the Activities tab for the purposes of gaining an advantage in Mafia is against the rules. Thus, if you do it openly, you'll be punished. If you do it secretly, you'll probably get away with it...but you will technically be cheating.

Checking Activities just to see if people are online is perfectly fine. Doing it repeatedly in order to see who is refreshing the pages? Not cool under the parameters of this rule.

July 13, 2013
white lancer

Xhin has known about this for a little while now (over a month at least) since LLight did it early on in Adventure Game 2 and I told Xhin about it then... Might be wise to simply pester him into doing something about it.


A different method was used around the same time when I used it during this Mafia game. The URL for Mafia is masked while the URL for Adventure is not, which was coded to counter my first observations in a previous game that highlighted the user's name in yellow when viewing the same page, therefore indicating which user was viewing which post. I wrote a few one liners to ease the management of monitoring, but those have since been removed.

It was already nerfed after past game discussions where it was determined that if someone spent considerable effort continually refreshing a page, then it was okay since not everyone is always online at the same time and the fact that it no longer shows which posts are being viewed. It worked for me in Night 0 because I knew that once the game was up, everyone would rush to see their roles and maybe converse with each other. The Bandit attempted to use it to identify weid man as mafia and while he was correct, the reasoning behind it is a bit weak because it didn't take into account his regular posting habits which just happen to include lurking. Disillusioned and uncorroborated claims such as this are still subject to false claims whereas the town would have blindly followed if this was at all a deciding factor. Well I wouldn't say it was a major factor, but it was a deciding factor in a bandwagon lynch. Bubba also considered this possibility as evidenced in the mafia thread.

Basically it's still a player's skill and intuition rather than the tool, much in the same way it is to be able to read a player's posting style.

July 13, 2013
LLight

Well I wouldn't say it was a major factor, but it was a deciding factor in a bandwagon lynch.

{roll}

It was obvious to every single person in the game that weid man was mafia, even before Castrael told us all he was mafia. His clicking activity had nothing to do with it at all.

The point, LLight, that has been brought up but you seem to ignore, is that this method takes away one of the mafia's biggest advantages. They can no longer discuss freely in their own thread if they're worried about attracting too much attention, which is not something they should ever have to worry about it. Obviously, sometimes random clicking is going to be a coincidence. However, that does not shift the balance nearly enough to make it a fair match up.

Also, I don't think being aware of other random users' posting habits outside of mafia counts as a mafia skill. The fact that it's, you know, something completely unrelated to mafia kind of defeats this claim.

July 13, 2013
The Bandit

As far as my gamew goes, I can't stop anybody from looking at the active users tab anymore then I could stop a mod from using the Recent Users tool for the same reason, or Admins(and LLight) from using the accounts data admin tool to briefly change their role to Host and peek at the Mafia panel.

I AM, however, disallowing any mention of what is on said tab. Mentioning anything about the tab will result in being suspended (silenced) for the rest of the day round, as well as losing any ability you may have for the night round.

I'm hoping we are all adult enough to use the honor system here.

July 14, 2013
Feral

Also, I don't think being aware of other random users' posting habits outside of mafia counts as a mafia skill. The fact that it's, you know, something completely unrelated to mafia kind of defeats this claim.

I don't think it was clear on how this works in this tactic because it's very, very important to know this type of information which is otherwise impossible to pin someone without it. It has everything to do with being able to read their habits outside of mafia otherwise you won't know if they're posting in mafia or somewhere else since that tab no longer indicates which page users are viewing.

The point, LLight, that has been brought up but you seem to ignore, is that this method takes away one of the mafia's biggest advantages. They can no longer discuss freely in their own thread if they're worried about attracting too much attention, which is not something they should ever have to worry about it.

I don't and never have disagreed with this, but it seems to me that there aren't many players who can pull this off if the above is any indication of understand exactly what I did and how I did it, therefore it's a combination of knowledge and time more than it is a skill, but more-so on the understanding part of it. The only other player who seemed competent enough at pulling it off was Jo Nathan, but he lacks the knowledge of player interpersonal relationships.

July 15, 2013
LLight

Reply to: discussionllights tactics

Username
Password