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Mafia

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game 4 thread 2 night 2 the long debate has ended

Posted April 21, 2012 by Yeano

Continued from [p:62888].

Day 2.

Boom! Early in the morning, a shot rang out! The town quickly investigated to see a horrible monster, lying dead on the ground. Bubba, the Ghoul, had been slain!

1. Zanic
2. `Roxas`
3. CtR Black
4. white lancer
5. Shadowwalked
6. MajorasMask9
7. Knukles2000
8. Xhin
9. LLight
10. hezekiah
11. Helius
12. chiefsonny
13. Bubba - Ghoul
14. Malas
15. Teddy-Son
16. Feral
17. Redack
18. #85

Mafia-Town Ratio: 5-12

Roles: Godfather, Executioner, Silencer, Thug, Mafioso, Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Governor, Double-voter, Ghoul

72 hours or 11 votes.

WARNING: If your role changes to "Silenced," you may NOT post in this thread. If you do, you will be host-killed.

There are 269 Replies

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The town quickly investigated to see a horrible monster,

That's not very nice.

Screw you, mafia. So much for the exciting new Ghoul twist.

April 21, 2012
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Bubba

{:(}

The only reason you were a horrible monster is because you were a Ghoul.

April 21, 2012
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Yeano

Can't a Ghoul just raise from the dead?

April 21, 2012
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Bubba

Not in this game, sorry.

And with that, you are confined to the Dead Thread.

April 21, 2012
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Yeano

Yeah, so much for freaking out about the Ghoul. And the Mafia is so nice for taking out someone on their first round playing. XD Oh well, at least it wasn't Xhin again.

I never really figured the whole Ghoul thing out, but I guess in terms of the game it's not that big of a loss. We've still got the Cop/Doctor/Governor/Vigilante and I guess the Ghoul wasn't officially on our side anyway. I'm going to hold off on voting for a while.

April 21, 2012
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white lancer

I think that since there are more mafia this game, if the Cop figures out someone he should come out early or there is a big chance we will lose him and all info he got.

And I really hate this 3 rounds of no voting strat. We will have to play a perfect game if we don't get one soon.

April 21, 2012
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#85

Well, looks like the Mafia either got lucky or had thoughts of who the Ghoul was. Congrats for getting that obstacle out of the way of not only yourselves, but the town as well.

And I really hate this 3 rounds of no voting strat. We will have to play a perfect game if we don't get one soon.

Agreed. Any thoughts on who, 85?

April 21, 2012
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`Roxas`

I'm open to lynching someone if we have any good ideas/suspicions, but I'm not going to take a random shot in the dark. That has a bigger chance of hurting us than helping us IMO, and I'd rather talk things out before jumping to either a No Kill vote or a lynch vote.

As an aside, if you're the Governor and you're about to get lynched, DO NOT claim Governor. You can argue against lynching you all you like, but it's much better if you go ahead and save yourself (you can also save someone else if we're about to lynch them and you don't think they're Mafia, just to throw the Mafia off).

April 21, 2012
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white lancer

"And I really hate this 3 rounds of no voting strat"

I also agree, all we're doing is giving the mafia 3 shots at us, while we no vote in fear of lynching one of us.

I have not decided yet, but it won't be a No Kill, No Vote. I'd rather use the Random, at least it's doing something.

The only good thing for us was it was the Ghoul they took out.

I'll be back to vote later after I've seen some more input and have had time to think this through.

April 21, 2012
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chiefsonny
 

Finally Redack can talk again! Do you have any idea how difficult it is to suppress my highly evolved need for attention? {:/}

Anyway, I have suspicions about one person that may be Mafia... One being LLight as he tried to get the silenced person (aka, me) to post in one of the others posts which would've resulted in a host-kill. Could be that he genuinely didn't know this but I figured it wasn't allowed (and later got confirmation) so I imagine he knew it's not allowed as well.

Beyond that I have nothing else.

April 21, 2012
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Redack

I don't really have any strong suspicions yet. It seems like most want to no vote, anyway

April 21, 2012
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#85

I think that since there are more mafia this game, if the Cop figures out someone he should come out early or there is a big chance we will lose him and all info he got.

No, I think it would be the opposite actually since they'd only reveal one mafia and then we'd be screwed the rest of the game. Still though, the cop has gotten killed or recruited pretty much every game so far by sheer luck so it might be good if they come out into the open early. So long as the Doctor is alive and not revealed, they can save them from dying.

If we play well enough we could theoretically lynch two people per round, one via less than 1/3 of the votes here, and one via the vigilante. We'll have to be careful with that though.

April 21, 2012
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Xhin
Sky's the limit

That's a good point you bring up about LLight, Redack. However, I'm not going to jump to conclusions until there is more deliberation among the players.

I agree with Xhin. The Cop could come out and be safe for a while, since the odds of hitting the Doc with the lynch or at night are just 8.5% and 9.1% respectively.

April 21, 2012
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`Roxas`

Finally Redack can talk again! Do you have any idea how difficult it is to suppress my highly evolved need for attention?

That must have been torture. :P

Anyway, I have suspicions about one person that may be Mafia... One being LLight as he tried to get the silenced person (aka, me) to post in one of the others posts which would've resulted in a host-kill. Could be that he genuinely didn't know this but I figured it wasn't allowed (and later got confirmation) so I imagine he knew it's not allowed as well.

I don't think that's necessarily evidence that LLight is Mafia. Part of the way LLight has been playing this game is to try to find loopholes to help him win, and urging the silent person to talk in a different post is consistent with that. I didn't know for sure if that would result in a host-kill either.

I don't really have any other suspicions right now, though. I'm playing this game blind.

April 21, 2012
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white lancer

I have no clue what you guys are talking about. Here is my problem: bullets go through ghosts they can't hurt them. So what is the point of having a ghost if it can be killed?

April 21, 2012
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Teddy-Son

I don't think that's necessarily evidence that LLight is Mafia. Part of the way LLight has been playing this game is to try to find loopholes to help him win, and urging the silent person to talk in a different post is consistent with that. I didn't know for sure if that would result in a host-kill either.

I'll take your word on this as you've played all the games so far... BUT if it turns out he's mafia I'm reserving the right to say told you so {:P} (even if it's from beyond the grave).

I'll wait to hear what others have to say before I decide what I'm going to do.

April 21, 2012
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Redack

I vote no kill. For what I do there should not be a lot of killing or it will take a lot of work.

April 21, 2012
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Teddy-Son

Sorry I haven't been active guys. My Internet has been down. So I get to catch up.

April 21, 2012
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Zanic

Mid-Day 2.

After Zanic spoke those words, he felt a sudden pain through his body. He slumped over, dead. He was the Double-voter.

1. Zanic - Double-voter
2. `Roxas`
3. CtR Black
4. white lancer
5. Shadowwalked
6. MajorasMask9
7. Knukles2000
8. Xhin
9. LLight
10. hezekiah
11. Helius
12. chiefsonny
13. Bubba - Ghoul
14. Malas
15. Teddy-Son
16. Feral
17. Redack
18. #85

Mafia-Town Ratio: 5-11

Roles: Godfather, Executioner, Silencer, Thug, Mafioso, Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Governor, Double-voter, Ghoul

WARNING: If your role changes to "Silenced," you may NOT post in this thread. If you do, you will be host-killed.

April 21, 2012
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Yeano

1. Why did Yeano kill Zanic off?
2. When did this mid-day thing come into play with the rules?
3. Does it not seem wrong to abuse his powers?

April 21, 2012
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Teddy-Son

To answer your question, Zanic was silenced.

April 21, 2012
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Yeano

He didn't know that?

And thanks for answering my questions.

April 21, 2012
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Teddy-Son

Sigh...

Well, based on how people have died so far, next to go will be the Governor.

April 21, 2012
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hezekiah

If the cop isn't going to reveal anything, no-kill might be best for now. After that though, I think even random voting would be more beneficial than a no-kill if we still don't have information to go by.

I'll put in a vote for no-kill, but if anything comes up I might switch it.

April 21, 2012
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MajorasMask9

Noooooo Zanic {:(}

Anyway could someone explain to me what the difference between "not voting" and "no kill" is in the voting?

April 21, 2012
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Redack

I think no voting is no voting at all and no kill is no killing. IDK

April 21, 2012
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Teddy-Son

AH so if I picked not voting my vote goes nowhere but if the majority pick no kill then we don't lynch someone?

April 21, 2012
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Redack

I believe so.

April 21, 2012
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Teddy-Son

@Xhin when youve got some free time. Just noticed. The tallies by round view shows my vote as having been done in round 1 rather than round 2... It still counts my vote properly in the "current tally" view though.

April 21, 2012
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Redack

Yep, not voting means you're currently not voting and you don't contribute to the vote count in any way.

No-kill means you're voting to not kill anyone. If "no-kill" get the majority, then nobody gets lynched.

April 21, 2012
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MajorasMask9

Sorry i'm late. I normally get here sooner, but was sleeping in. :P. Anyway, i'm still not sure what I want to do. I somewhat see the logic in no voting... but it still dosn't seem worth it to just throw our bullets to the ground.

April 21, 2012
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Knukles2000

Well, this really blows. We lost one powerful ally and one potentially powerful ally. I'm not going to stand no voting and putting ourselves in greater peril.

As such, my vote is as follows and will remain as such until my mind is undeniably changed.

April 21, 2012
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`Roxas`

No guys we don't need to kill more people lets just not kill at all huh?

April 21, 2012
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Teddy-Son

And then the Mafia just kill another townie at night. Roxas has a point, though I'm not sure if the loss of the doubt-voter is a blessing or a curse. His two votes instead of one could've caused issues for us, but he was also a townie {:(}

April 21, 2012
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Redack

Fine I'll do a random vote. I don't know who to choose but what the fuck? You know? If it picks me though I'll change my vote to random again until someone else is picked.

And that sob Xhin changing my name {:/}

April 21, 2012
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Teddy-Son

Bleh... I think we should go on what suspicions we have at this point, it's better than random, or no voting. That is why I also

April 21, 2012
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Knukles2000

No one seems suspicious to me.

April 21, 2012
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Teddy-Son

I'll wait for LLight to reply before I decide if I'm going to vote for him or not. Have to give the guy a chance after all, just in case he's innocent :)

April 21, 2012
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Redack

I'll wait for LLight to reply before I decide if I'm going to vote for him or not. Have to give the guy a chance after all, just in case he's innocent :)

I hate doing that. He talks, and either way he's gonna be like. WTFFFFFFF. Then he's going to most likely bore our brains to death with statistics most of us don't get, and big words. All that to try to prove he isn't mafia. But at this point, theres no way to prove he is, or isn't anyway.

April 21, 2012
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Knukles2000

@Redack, read this line carefully. If your role changes to "Silenced," you may NOT post in this thread. If you do, you will be host-killed., likewise it looks like Yeano locked that thread that I linked to. So me telling you to reply in another thread is perfectly within the rules. If we were able to post topics, then that would also be within the rules to do so while silenced.

If you choose to roll, here is the chart calculated by 100/[totalPlayers] which is 6.25 rounded up or down to 6.

1. 'Roxas' is 1 to 6
2. CtR Black is 7 to 12
3. white lancer is 13 to 18
4. Shadowwalked is 19 to 24
5. MajorasMask9 is 25 to 30
6. Knukles2000 is 31 to 36
7. Xhin is 37 to 42
8. LLight is 43 to 48
9. hezekiah is 49 to 54
10. Helius is 55 to 60
11. chiefsonny is 61 to 66
12. Malas is 67 to 72
13. Teddy-Son is 73 to 78
14. Feral is 79 to 84
15. Redack is 85 to 90
16. #85 is 91 to 96
17. Re-Roll is 97 to 100

For emphasis:
If your role changes to "Silenced," you may NOT post in this thread. If you do, you will be host-killed.
you may NOT post in this thread.
this thread.
this thread.

April 21, 2012
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LLight

Redack, you haven't voted yet this round, so that's why you don't get anything in the tallies for round 2.

Here's a breakdown of voting:

  • N/A -- Doesn't change or add your vote at all. If you've already voted, you should pick this so it doesn't get changed.

  • Not Voting -- The same as N/A except you show up in the tallies as "Not Voting". Doesn't count as a vote (ex -- if 4 people are not voting, and 3 people vote LLight, then LLight gets lynched)

  • No Kill -- This counts as a vote, so if 4 people vote "No Vote" and 3 people vote Llight, then LLight does not get lynched.

    • April 21, 2012
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    Xhin
    Sky's the limit

    You could also pick Random, which is what I'm about to do. It won't show your vote as random, but it still picks someone randomly.

    April 21, 2012
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    Xhin
    Sky's the limit

    Updated [d:230] in regards to Silencing.

    Also, Redack did vote this round. He did not vote last round, so his vote is shown under last round's tally instead of this round's.

    April 21, 2012
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    Yeano

    Let's see (1/3)*16=5.33 and the executioner can for sure kill the tallied votes for this round. So 5 votes for a person and they're potentially dead.

    Also question: does the executioner act during the day or night round?

    btw, the roll you should be using is ~(roll)~

    April 21, 2012
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    LLight

    Bwahaha I'm awesome. I revolutionize this game almost every game.

    April 21, 2012
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    LLight

    Actually Xhin I have... I was silenced for Round one and so didn't post or vote.

    I then voted no kill in this post. This being round 2. So the flaw isn't me, it's your system!

    @Redack, read this line carefully. If your role changes to "Silenced," you may NOT post in this thread. If you do, you will be host-killed., likewise it looks like Yeano locked that thread that I linked to. So me telling you to reply in another thread is perfectly within the rules. If we were able to post topics, then that would also be within the rules to do so while silenced.

    Only it's not, I even asked Yeano for confirmation. The question is whether or not you knew this and intentionally tried to get me to post in there {;)}

    April 21, 2012
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    Redack

    Only it is because the wording says it is, otherwise Yeano would not have changed the rules just now.

    April 21, 2012
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    LLight

    Oh, yeah I totally missed your vote somehow.

    Will fix.

    April 21, 2012
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    Xhin
    Sky's the limit

    I still don't trust you...

    But I'm keeping my vote as no kill.

    April 21, 2012
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    Redack

    Knuckles is correct except this is his plan to distract us from his plans. Llight likes doing stuff like that ;)

    April 21, 2012
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    Teddy-Son

    You don't have to trust the words of anyone in this game. Now that the ghoul is dead, the only way to be sure of someone's role now is if they're dead or if the cop says so, and by extension you will only believe the words of the cop until after he dies. The mafia know who the other mafia are so they are at an advantage by default.

    I really liked the idea of the ghoul, but he died in the first round, so gaaaay.

    Also about Knuckles, he's a tough player now that he's been through a few games. He still acts exactly the same, which makes it hard to tell what role he is because he's done the exact same things as both a town sided and mafia sided role. He claimed the cop role (he was a townie) so that he could persuade the town into voting to kill someone he thought was absolutely mafia and ended up killing the doctor. This matches his out of game persona because you don't normally believe the words Knuckles says even outside of the game. Redack on the other hand has a perfectly normal response for a newbie confused about the rules, so I don't find that suspicious at all.

    April 21, 2012
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    LLight

    It ain't worth crap, but i'm a mere townie, guys. All I can say either way, I have no "plans" except to vote out the mafia.

    April 21, 2012
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    Knukles2000

    That was for Llight Knuckles.

    April 21, 2012
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    Teddy-Son

    Oh, so your implying Llight is suspicious? 0_o And oh well, I planned to say I was a townie anyway.

    April 21, 2012
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    Knukles2000

    Well you think so when you said "I hate doing that. He talks, and either way he's gonna be like. WTFFFFFFF. Then he's going to most likely bore our brains to death with statistics most of us don't get, and big words. All that to try to prove he isn't mafia. But at this point, theres no way to prove he is, or isn't anyway." right?

    And it is a joke but he is strange for sure.

    April 21, 2012
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    Teddy-Son

    There are very few truths you can be absolutely sure of in this game and I've spoken a few. Can't really defend myself against uncertain or uneducated suspicions. This is normal for Teddy-Son's out of game persona and also, his in-game one because he was confused as fuck for the entire last game.

    April 21, 2012
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    LLight

    I still am but this time if I die it won't matter I am for the town but not a cop.

    April 21, 2012
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    Teddy-Son

    We won't know that for sure until you die. I used the "I'm a townie" line in game 2 but it was believable then because I was an enticing target for a few reasons and also because I was doctor saved. I still am a hearty target. Here is my mafia game resume:

  • Game 1 - Figured out how to get into the restricted mafia threads, got host killed
  • Game 2 (Redacted) - Figured out 2 ways on how to identify mafia members, caused the game to be reset and patched
  • Game 2 - with hezekiah's bouncing of ideas, developed the random roll chart
  • Game 3 - Introduced better statistics and analysis of gameplay
  • Game 4 (current) - Pointed out a few wording loopholes and a flawed random vote system (now patched and rules changed on the fly by Yeano as I continue to reveal them, never to happen before in a mafia game)

    In games 1-3 I was but a simple townie. This one, who knows? Still working out the kinks of each newly introduced and potentially game changing role. As you can see by the above, I'm still an asset to this town regardless of role as long as I stick to truths that can be derived from the existing roles and as long as we keep bouncing theories on how to identify other people (it's also a good way to hide if you're mafia). So reacting to posts like "I don't understand, so you must be suspicious" isn't going to prove anything. Your cooperation in that respect would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

    The meta-arguments are what are important, like for instance, MajorasMask9 thought it was a good idea that the cop reveal himself, then said it was a risky strategy for a few reasons. Still wondering on why you would think this is a good idea, btw (if you still believe in it).

    • April 21, 2012
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    LLight

    I think his reasoning behind the idea of the Cop revealing himself would be so that:

    1) We know who he/she is.
    2) The Doc can protect him/her at night, so long as the Doc is alive.

    April 21, 2012
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    `Roxas`

    #2 is only viable if the cop has leverage to prove to the town that they are indeed the cop. Like say, if they investigated a person and it was revealed that the person the cop nominated was indeed a mafioso by lynch reveal.

    It's still risky because there is a greater chance that the doctor is an inactive player who does not follow the discussion.

    April 21, 2012
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    LLight

    I see what you mean. Ultimately it's the Cop's decision though.

    April 21, 2012
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    `Roxas`

    The meta-arguments are what are important, like for instance, MajorasMask9 thought it was a good idea that the cop reveal himself, then said it was a risky strategy for a few reasons. Still wondering on why you would think this is a good idea, btw (if you still believe in it).

    If we're talking about what was said last day round, I was disagreeing with your idea of killing anyone that claims cop. I said that the cop should claim if somebody falsely claims cop, not that they should outright claim cop on Day 1 (which would be risky depending on the information they have and other factors).

    I shouldn't have to explain why it's a bad idea for the town to be mislead by mafia that claims to be a cop, especially if they're trying to get somebody lynched. The smart move for the cop would be to counterclaim if the fake cop is calling an innocent person guilty, they shouldn't just sit back and watch.

    April 22, 2012
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    MajorasMask9

    I'd actually be fine with it if everyone was an active participant. I've got a collection of players whom I'd rather not have to lynch because they make a lot of sense: MajorasMask9, white lancer, 'Roxas', Xhin, hezekiah and recently Shadowwalked has replaced Helius due to inactivity of the latter. They're all tough targets to persuade the town to lynch. In my mind, newbie players are also hard to pin because you don't know how they play or if they're proficient with the understanding of the rules. They are also the ones that are easier to find holes in logic like with Knuckles and Teddy-Son just now.

    I shouldn't have to explain why it's a bad idea for the town to be mislead by mafia that claims to be a cop, especially if they're trying to get somebody lynched. The smart move for the cop would be to counterclaim if the fake cop is calling an innocent person guilty, they shouldn't just sit back and watch.

    This is too circumstantial in the sense that it would mean the town should lynch the fake cop after claim is proven false, which is what I'm trying to say. It doubles as a safeguard because it keeps the cop's role safe because then he would not need to reveal himself and we only know a player's true role after they have died. In the later rounds an exposed cop is more likely to die as the mafia pick off everyone else but him.

    April 22, 2012
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    LLight

    Who cares about who makes sense, Llight? they could make sense, and still be mafia.

    April 22, 2012
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    Knukles2000

    I am actually leading you who I am really am without actually saying it.

    April 22, 2012
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    Teddy-Son

    It's better if they make sense even if they were mafia because then you could better spend your analyses skills on the sloppier players.

    April 22, 2012
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    LLight

    Llight: Should we spend more time on the players who are NOT sloppy? Spending time on the easy players like me are stupid. We are useless to spend time on.

    April 22, 2012
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    Teddy-Son

    So have we thought up any strategy? We're still working off of 0 info. It is interesting that everybody talks so much, can't help but be suspiscious of the over-helpful.

    April 22, 2012
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    Malas

    Think of it this way. Suppose all the smart people who make the most sense are mafia. WHY would sense matter in that instance? Besides, your logic is just fancy words with accusations and possibilities. Just like We do. So I see NO difference with you other than fancy wordplay.

    April 22, 2012
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    Knukles2000

    And what Llight says confuses the Hell out of me.

    April 22, 2012
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    Teddy-Son

    I've got a collection of players whom I'd rather not have to lynch because they make a lot of sense: MajorasMask9, white lancer, 'Roxas', Xhin, hezekiah and recently Shadowwalked has replaced Helius due to inactivity of the latter.

    Yay, I made the cut. My life is now complete.

    This is too circumstantial in the sense that it would mean the town should lynch the fake cop after claim is proven false, which is what I'm trying to say. It doubles as a safeguard because it keeps the cop's role safe because then he would not need to reveal himself and we only know a player's true role after they have died. In the later rounds an exposed cop is more likely to die as the mafia pick off everyone else but him.

    I agree with this, for the record. There's no need for the real Cop to counter-claim if someone else claims Cop because we'll know immediately after any mis-lynch that the person who claimed Cop was Mafia. If the real Cop doesn't counter-claim, the most the fake Cop gets is one lynched Townie, and in exchange we get a Mafia member. On the other hand, if the fake Cop accuses someone who is a special role, that person should claim immediately IMO. Better that than we lynch the Vigilante or Governor, and the Mafia will have to choose between going after that special role and hoping to get lucky enough to hit the Cop with a shot in the dark.

    April 22, 2012
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    white lancer

    {:(}

    April 22, 2012
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    Teddy-Son

    This is too circumstantial in the sense that it would mean the town should lynch the fake cop after claim is proven false, which is what I'm trying to say. It doubles as a safeguard because it keeps the cop's role safe because then he would not need to reveal himself and we only know a player's true role after they have died. In the later rounds an exposed cop is more likely to die as the mafia pick off everyone else but him.

    I don't really want to write out a post on why it would be best for the cop to counterclaim if somebody falsely claims cop as it would be too long and I'd probably lose my train of though halfway through, and it is slightly situational. Look at it this way:

    If we go by the assumption that the cop should stay hidden if any false claims come up, and we'll instantly kill anyone that claims cop. If the cop decides to claim and identifies maybe half of the mafia, we'd kill him and be clueless for the rest of the game as to the rest of the mafia. The only redeeming point to this is that if the mafia claims to be cop, they'd get lynched. But remember that if the cop does ever reveal any information, they'd be killed to confirm it, meaning we won't get any MORE information from them.

    If we go by the assumption that the cop will step up if somebody falsely claims, we can look at each person that claimed cop and make an educated guess as to the legitimate one. If we guess wrong, worse case is that the real cop is dead, which would have happened in your solution where we automatically kill anyone that claims cop. If we guess correctly, we kill somebody that's mafia and can put a doctor on the other person, as they will be 100% confirmed to be the cop.

    April 22, 2012
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    MajorasMask9

    On the other hand, if the fake Cop accuses someone who is a special role, that person should claim immediately IMO.

    I'm against revealing roles of any kind (unless you're mafia *wink*) because it proves nothing until you die. Exposure removes any anonymity you had, which is the only thing protecting you. Role reveals are overall dumb moves as seen in previous games, especially where MajorasMask9 revealed that he was a mason. The cultists took that into account and was able to narrow down their suspects on who to recruit. It hurts the town more than it helps them as demonstrated a couple of times by Knuckles and his false cop claims, especially when your gut was wrong.

    Edited: MajorasMask9's name spelling.

    April 22, 2012
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    LLight

    Llight is a {<OO}

    April 22, 2012
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    Teddy-Son

    Light is a {troll} and {<OO} atm. But he's trying to play it {8D} to make us all get {:(} so he can {O:-)}

    April 22, 2012
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    Knukles2000

    {:3}

    April 22, 2012
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    Teddy-Son

    especially where MajorsMask9 revealed that he was a mason. The cultists took that into account and was able to narrow down their suspects on who to recruit

    Except I wasn't a mason, and by getting them to "narrow their targets", I made it so they wouldn't target me, a townie, and would instead potentially target Zanic (mason) who the cult thought was a townie. Like I said, it's situational and I don't want to go into it.

    It hurts the town more than it helps them as demonstrated a couple of times by Knuckles and his false cop claims, especially when your gut was wrong.

    The problem with this is that I'm assuming a town-sided role will never falsely claim a power role, only a mafia-sided player would. Mass roleclaims only work if everyone agrees to tell the truth except for the mafia: It makes all of the players put their cards on the table and get rid of any secrets (except for the mafia).

    This works better in games when there are less of multiple types of roles (ie we have 7 "townies" now so a mass claim would most likely result in 12-16 "townie" claims). Besides, I'm not talking about mass roleclaims in this game, I'm talking about a specific situation regarding the cop. The cop is by far the most important role in the game, and the idea of counterclaiming a false cop claim and trying to determine the legitimate one is a much safer and more beneficial solution than killing anyone that says "I'm cop."

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    MajorasMask9

    Not that I want to quit, but if I DID want to quit I could just stop playing right or just say I quit right?

    And no, I don't want to quit yet, I just am wondering if anyone can do that.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Teddy-Son

    I think we should take a shot in the dark this round. and if we miss we can vote no kill next round

    I think we should look at why people have been silent

    And add my vote to llight. he hasnt been a mafia member the last two games, so i'd say odds are pro him being mafia. not saying he is, but theres a high chance then someone who was just mafia. in my opinion

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    CtR Black

    And add my vote to llight. he hasnt been a mafia member the last two games

    He's NEVER been mafia in all the games. He's way overdue.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    The problem with this is that I'm assuming a town-sided role will never falsely claim a power role, only a mafia-sided player would.

    With the exception of Knux, right?

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    `Roxas`

    I meant to also say he hasnt been a special role the last two games

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    CtR Black

    With the exception of Knux, right?

    Knuckles was mafia.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Teddy-Son

    However, keep in mind everyone that if we go Llight, anyone who disagrees should most likely no vote at the very least. That way the executioner won't be able to kill anyone himself.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    For the record, I keep up as best I can on this slow assed handheld. Hard reading through a thread that gets 70 replies in just a few hours.

    If LLight isn't Mafia, he is putting one hell of a target on his back for them with his claims of being invaluable regardles what he is.

    I'm voting random for now...

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Feral

    I don't think we should kill at all that gives to much work for a certain someone.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Teddy-Son

    Well, I just caught up with the tread. I have a life outside of this site (in case anyone is wondering where I have been ---> It's called work and more work :( which is why I sat outside the last game)

    Anyhow, I really don't have anything to say about this thread in the first place other than Llight... I applaud you for trying to break the rules.

    I'll change my vote and make comments when I see them as appropriate.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Helius

    Except I wasn't a mason, and by getting them to "narrow their targets", I made it so they wouldn't target me, a townie, and would instead potentially target Zanic, the mason who the cult thought was a townie. Like I said, it's situational and I don't want to go into it.

    You ended up as a mason and that turn was wasted recruiting you later. Not necessarily your fault, but it caused others to fault and cost a game loss in the shorter term.

    The problem with this is that I'm assuming a town-sided role will never falsely claim a power role, only a mafia-sided player would. Mass roleclaims only work if everyone agrees to tell the truth except for the mafia: It makes all of the players put their cards on the table and get rid of any secrets (except for the mafia).

    Knuckles is the epitome of bad decisions. He was a townie who claimed the cop role. A town sided role should NEVER falsely claim cop. It's just a bad move in general, so then the only correct assumption would be that it is a mafia member falsely claiming cop, but we won't know that until the lynch target dies. The town would have then just wasted a turn believing someone who they can't actually verify is actually telling the truth. If a cop leave clues in their gameplay, then claims the role and the town lynches him right away, the trade-off should at least be 2+ mafia identified to recoup the cost of that turn.

    Anyways, I think you and I have had enough of this discussion. I'd rather hear someone else's views on this topic.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    I say: {<OO}

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Teddy-Son

    {troll}{<OO}{!}

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    And guys, remember that the random vote option is flawed. If you select it, there's no way to tell if it was manually selected or not. For instance... (I selected random here)

    Use ~(roll)~ and use the chart I've posted to select your target. That's the only way.

    Here is the modified script to calculate it in the event of my death:
    (run it from the command line, save to desktop and run it by "cscript mafia.vbs" without the quotes.

    -----------

    Option Explicit
    dim numTownies, numMafia, totalPlayers, curPath, objFile, strLine, arrLines, objReg, incrVal, objFSO, i, j, k, l, m, maxRoll
    curPath = CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject").GetAbsolutePathName(".")
    Set objFSO = CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject")
    objFile = objFSO.OpenTextFile(curPath & "\players.txt",1).ReadAll
    maxRoll=100 'dice size

    'Get number of lines, fast, for totalPlayers
    Set objReg = New RegExp
    With objReg
    .Global = True
    .Pattern = "\r\n"
    totalPlayers = .Execute(objFile).Count + 1
    End With

    'Get total number of players from players.txt, should be in the same directory as this script
    incrVal = (maxRoll/totalPlayers)
    If incrVal < maxRoll Then
    incrVal = Fix(maxRoll/totalPlayers)
    End If

    'Display roll chart and name/number of each player
    WScript.Echo "If you choose to roll, here is the chart calculated by " & maxRoll & "/[totalPlayers] which is " & round((maxRoll/totalPlayers),2) & " rounded up or down to " & incrVal & "."
    WScript.Echo

    k = int(-IncrVal) 'so start value of count on plyr1 is always 1
    l = int(-IncrVal) + 1 'so end value of count on plyr1 is always +1 of IncrVal
    arrLines = Split(objFile,vbCrLf)
    For Each strLine in arrLines 'loop through each name in players.txt
    m = m + 1 'player number
    For i = 1 To IncrVal Step IncrVal 'Incremental value per player
    For j = 1 To IncrVal
    k = k + 1
    l = l + 1
    If j - i + 1 = IncrVal Then 'only display last entry in this loop
    WScript.Echo m & ". " & strLine & " is " & k + 1 & " to " & l + IncrVal - 1
    End If
    Next
    Next
    Next
    If l + IncrVal <= maxRoll Then 'Don't display re-roll if the IncrVal is greater than or equal to maxRoll
    WScript.Echo m + 1 & ". Re-Roll is " & l + IncrVal & " to " & maxRoll
    Else
    WScript.Echo "No Re-Roll is necessary."
    End If

    -----------

    players.txt current looks like this:
    'Roxas'
    CtR Black
    white lancer
    Shadowwalked
    MajorasMask9
    Knukles2000
    Xhin
    LLight
    hezekiah
    Helius
    chiefsonny
    Malas
    Teddy-Son
    Feral
    Redack
    #85

    Edited: Screenshot from last game. I also posted a download link in one of the first 2 main threads of the last game.


    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    Change vote because I don't actually want to vote for anyone right now.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    Well I'll just say this: Even if a legitimate cop claim comes up, I think naturally a counterclaim will come up regardless.

    If only a single claim comes up, I'm strongly against lynching the person that claims cop just to determine their identity. If anything this is putting pressure on the cop to withhold their information for a longer time until they have a lot of guilty verdicts, and the further into the game they last the more likely it is that they'll die from a mafia kill, meaning everything that they found would be useless.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    MajorasMask9

    Actually... because it's still the safest move. We still have a Vigilante who basically rolls the dice anyways. 2 deaths at night is better than 3 in day/night combined before next vote, so as long as the Vigilante still lives, we should be okay.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    Great Scot, Llight is a computer!

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Teddy-Son

    Cop claim and counterclaim are tricky. We could listen to one person and try out their claim; however, we still lose more townies than we would Mafia. I may be wrong in this. Here's how I see it playing out.

    (#1) Cop Claim
    (#2) Counter Claim

    #1 gives info regarding (#3) individual
    #2 gives info regarding (#4) individual

    Town lynches #3 to see if they are Mafia.

    If #3 is Mafia, we know #1 is Cop.
    If #3 is not Mafia, town lynches townie and knows #1 is not Cop.

    Night round:

    Doctor protects #1 (if Cop) or protects #2 based on the above evaluation.

    ---------

    Potential problems I see with this is that if the cop is identified by lynching method, the doctor is now tied up on that individual.

    The other problem with this is that Mafia knows who the cop is and will be waiting for the Doctor not to protect or to try and figure out the Doctor.

    Another potential problem, is that the Mafia may kill one of their own in the counter-claim and thus have the town kill the cop. :(

    Llight, you're better at seeing logic than I am. Is there anything I'm missing with the way I have presented it?

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Helius

    I'm against revealing roles of any kind (unless you're mafia *wink*) because it proves nothing until you die. Exposure removes any anonymity you had, which is the only thing protecting you. Role reveals are overall dumb moves as seen in previous games, especially where MajorsMask9 revealed that he was a mason. The cultists took that into account and was able to narrow down their suspects on who to recruit. It hurts the town more than it helps them as demonstrated a couple of times by Knuckles and his false cop claims, especially when your gut was wrong.

    Being protected in anonymity isn't helpful if that anonymity winds up getting you lynched by the town. If you're about to be lynched and you're a power role, you should claim. It's true that you can't prove who you are, but the only way you can be disproven is a counter-claim (or being lynched anyway). Since roles are revealed after death, any Mafia who claims a power role falsely will be found out eventually, since eventually the real role will be revealed. And if someone claims Cop and accuses a power role of being Mafia, the power role can turn that back on them by claiming.

    If only a single claim comes up, I'm strongly against lynching the person that claims cop just to determine their identity. If anything this is putting pressure on the cop to withhold their information for a longer time until they have a lot of guilty verdicts, and the further into the game they last the more likely it is that they'll die from a mafia kill, meaning everything that they found would be useless.

    There's no need to lynch the person who claims Cop. All we'd need to do to know if they're telling the truth is lynch the person they're accusing. That should be enough info to prove that the Cop is (or isn't) who they say they are, and we can play accordingly afterward. The only time a counterclaim actually needs to happen is in the extremely rare circumstance that a Mafia member claims Cop and convinces us to lynch another Mafia member, which is probably not a winning strategy in the long run.

    The only benefit that comes from a counter-claim (or any kind of claim) from the real Cop is that they can then be protected by the Doctor, but we'd be screwed if the Cop came out too early and the Mafia managed to kill the Doctor.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    white lancer

    #1 gives info regarding (#3) individual
    #2 gives info regarding (#4) individual

    Town lynches #3 to see if they are Mafia.

    If #3 is Mafia, we know #1 is Cop.
    If #3 is not Mafia, town lynches townie and knows #1 is not Cop.

    Night round:

    Doctor protects #1 (if Cop) or protects #2 based on the above evaluation.

    This is not necessarily true, because if the False Cop correctly guesses a Mafia member, what good would it do if the Real Cop is lynched the next day (or taken out at night by Vigilante or Mafia) with still quite a bit of information withheld or not yet discovered?

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    `Roxas`

    It makes perfect sense the way you presented it Helius. Too, too right. It's not worth the risk that anyone reveal their role due to possibility 2's mindfuck as outlined (if you don't mind me putting numbers on these lines for identification purposes):

  • Situation 1: The other problem with this is that Mafia knows who the cop is and will be waiting for the Doctor not to protect or to try and figure out the Doctor.
  • Situation 2: Another potential problem, is that the Mafia may kill one of their own in the counter-claim and thus have the town kill the cop. :(

    • April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    I say we lynch LLight just so he will stop littering the thread with techno-babble that nobody but Sheldon Cooper can understand! 8p

    He does have a point about tge random voting, though. Watch for a group of people who all seem to draw the same random vote. Could be the Mafia pretending to vote random to get a free day kill.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Feral

    I say we lynch LLight just so he will stop littering the thread with techno-babble that nobody but Sheldon Cooper can understand!

    Then.... why aren't you voting him?

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    This is not necessarily true, because if the False Cop correctly guesses a Mafia member, what good would it do if the Real Cop is lynched the next day (or taken out at night by Vigilante or Mafia) with still quite a bit of information withheld or not yet discovered?

    The purpose is to preserve as many roles as we can and the best way to do that is to let the Vigilante take action in the night round until he dies and be hopeful that the cop left clues if he dies too. So I think that lynching via vote should be prohibited until the Vigilante dies.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    Works for me, Llight. :)

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Helius

    Knuckles man, you are so unpredictable so I honestly can't tell if you're piling on with Teddy-Son because you or he is mafia feigning ignorance or because you have a natural grudge against me outside of game.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    Feral you should probably make a sarcasm sign.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    MajorasMask9

    I'm.... not piling with him? Have you noticed Teddy voted someone else? Your just Mafia trying to talk just like you did before to throw everyone off imo.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    I've got a collection of players whom I'd rather not have to lynch because they make a lot of sense: MajorasMask9, white lancer, 'Roxas', Xhin, hezekiah and recently Shadowwalked has replaced Helius due to inactivity of the latter.

    Of course, white lancer was the reason we lost game 2.

    Not that I want to quit, but if I DID want to quit I could just stop playing right or just say I quit right?

    Claim you're something you're not. Go out with a bang!

    All right LLight, I'll change the script so Random tells you it's random. I thought it would be funner the other way :/

    Voting for you because this requires work.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Xhin
    Sky's the limit

    Teddy voted randomly at that, so I have no idea what you were trying to get at.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    Your vote says one thing, but your posts say otherwise. What's with the duck and trollfaces? You've been wrong before so I don't think anyone should necessarily trust anything you say. It's this unstable nature that made me want to lynch you regardless of role because it proved a hindrance to the town, multiple times.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    Uh didn't realize you were so high. No Kill for now.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Xhin
    Sky's the limit

    Yes, because 2 more votes for me and the Executioner can kill me. Yeano has not said whether or not the Executioner kill is during the day or night round.

    It's 5 votes before the Executioner can kill since (1/3)*16=5.33 where 16 is the total number of players this round.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    We're mostly joking, but we may be implying something secretly. I myself was implying you are mafia bent on leading the town into a destruction because you are the smartest, most logical sounding person here. Plus it dosn't MATTER if you trust what I say. My vote, and my indirect accusations are based on perception watching the game, and the fact that you haven't been mafia for 5 games (game 2 was re done) and you are way over due to be Mafia. Thats all. But if you ARE mafia, it seems far too dangerous to keep you alive, you MUST realize that.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    Test (do not count this vote)

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Xhin
    Sky's the limit

    Okay, the Random system works correctly now.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Xhin
    Sky's the limit

    Wow, I hit MM9 twice randomly, maybe ITS A SIGN :P

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Xhin
    Sky's the limit

    2 random votes for MajorasMask9? You tryin' to tell us something, Xhin? Haha, I kid... It's unfair for Xhin to write something that can easily be tweaked to his liking and no one else would know the wiser. The system looks nice on the outside, but him as a participant means we shouldn't trust his random votes either. I posted my code so anyone who at least knows how to read psuedo-code should be able to tell.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    No reply... just as I thought.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    It's like I said before, you're better off trying to figure out other targets unless you have no other choice.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    And, fixed Redack's glitch.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Xhin
    Sky's the limit

    IF You were to be mafia, you would be the biggest threat of anyone here, yes? And if you look above, is my reasoning REALLY so terrible for how early the game is?

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    I am changing my random vote to see what happens.

    And Llight, you are a cool guy just most of you stuff you talk about is confusing for a normal person.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Teddy-Son

    The system looks nice on the outside, but him as a participant means we shouldn't trust his random votes either.

    Yeah, but you wouldn't be able to trust my rolls either. Heck, I could tweak the role system so everything points towards whichever person I'm suspicious of. But that would be pointless.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Xhin
    Sky's the limit

    I don't mean to toot my own horn but yeah, as long as I make sense or the correct information gets conveyed and acknowledged then I don't even care if you're mafia, you can live. It's just gives more turns for a cop to covertly gather information until he martyrs himself for the town. There's still the godfather role though, so that one is the most luck based hit of all time.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    If I get better suspicions, you know i'll change my vote. But right now there are a few vague reasons you could be mafia. As such, I vote for you...

    ALSO, what happens if the votes get tied?

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    As I said in my post above, I will not vote No Kill or No Vote again because I think it just gives the Mafia a free ride to pick us off one at a time.

    While there are 2 people that I think may be Mafia, I don't see enough proof yet to make a direct for for either one.
    So I will be using the Random vote.

    This vote will change if I see anything that gives me cause before the end of this day round.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    chiefsonny
     

    Then put your faith in Batman's hands (the Vigilante) and vote for No Kill. His kills are the only ones you can trust aren't influenced by the mafia until either he or the cop dies. This way, we minimize townie deaths. There's no preventative measure in avoiding a mafia kill, so we're at the very least guaranteed a -1 townie at night. It's better than -2 when the Vigilante is wrong and a -3 when Vigilante and town vote is wrong.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    Oh except Batman never intentionally killed anyone, so think of it as jail time or something.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    ... I hope the cop knows what he's doing, cause I suspect this game won't be so laid back as most are thinking.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    Then put your faith in Batman's hands (the Vigilante) and vote for No Kill

    Yea that's fine unless the current Vigilante is a dumb ass like me when I was the Vigilante in game 2 and killed 2 of my own townies.{:P}

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    chiefsonny
     

    Batman is cool I'll put my faith in him.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Teddy-Son

    Then put your faith in Batman's hands (the Vigilante) and vote for No Kill. His kills are the only ones you can trust aren't influenced by the mafia until either he or the cop dies. This way, we minimize townie deaths. There's no preventative measure in avoiding a mafia kill, so we're at the very least guaranteed a -1 townie at night. It's better than -2 when the Vigilante is wrong and a -3 when Vigilante and town vote is wrong.

    Llight i feel like this is the opposite of what youve been saying the last few games.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    CtR Black

    Ohh CtR might be onto something could Llight not be the good guy this time?

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Teddy-Son

    Llight i feel like this is the opposite of what youve been saying the last few games.

    TBH. THIS^ And also tbh, I think we should kill Llight, and ask questions later... he's acting different, He hasn't been mafia for 5 games, and he'd just be the most dangerous if he is mafia, I say it's worth the risk to vote him out, cause I fear we are taking a bigger risk if we don't vote him out.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    He hasn't been mafia for 5 games

    This is game 4

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Teddy-Son

    This is game 4

    As I said before, game 2 was redone. so there was 5.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    Why was game 2 redone?

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Teddy-Son

    Why was game 2 redone?

    Because Llight was cheating.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    Well yeah, before I was gung-ho about taking the smaller 28% chance to lynch a mafioso via vote, but I wasn't thinking steps ahead via Day/Night rounds and the Vigilante didn't exist in all those games. I've got a better grasp on the probability after the last game thanks to some of you bros.

    If we vote No Kill we neutralize the Executioner, Governor, and Double-Vote roles. Governor and Double-Vote are prone to human error and mafia influence. By using the Vigilante, we also minimize the number of humans making an error and herd mentality is also defeated. Though, we're fucked when he dies using this strategy, but he is also protected by a 1/11 9.09% chance of the mafia selecting him as the target to kill during the night round.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    hmmmm

    All of my random votes hit Jedi Sith people: White Lancer, Redack and now Malas? Is that some kind of sign?

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Teddy-Son

    It's wasn't cheating. I'm the reason why the reply count shows up as a question mark and why the yellow marking on the People tab showing a person viewing the same page no longer works in this forum. It's also masked in the mod tools. I single-handedly identified all 4 mafia in a single round as a regular townie and was responsible for outing 2 mafia members in another game with my theories.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    I ruled LLight's actions as officially "not cheating" no matter how cheap they may have been.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Yeano

    Oh well, it was close enough to cheating to provoke anger and everything.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    How much time do we have left before the day is over? I am still thinking about a serious vote.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Teddy-Son

    I ruled LLight's actions as officially "not cheating" no matter how cheap they may have been.

    lol

    but yeah props for that, thats pretty smart

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    CtR Black

    And also i'm pretty sure the executioner kills at the end of the day round.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    CtR Black

    How much time do we have left before the day is over?

    Approximately 62 hours.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Yeano

    Thanks Yeano

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Teddy-Son

    Oh yeah, Knuckles raged hard when I identified him and chiefsonny. chiefsonny silently raged and white lancer and Helius were a bit more reasonable, but definitely displeased. It were these reasons that added to the "LLight is an enticing target!" brigade as I continue to demonstrate.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    If we vote No Kill we neutralize the Executioner, Governor, and Double-Vote roles

    Zanic was the Double-voter and he was killed mid day for talking while silenced.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    chiefsonny
     

    white lancer and Helius

    Kassie was the other Mafia, not Lancer.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    Yep but if that role was still alive, he'd definitely be neutralized.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    Kassie was the other Mafia, not Lancer.

    I didn't say they were mafia; I said they were displeased. You outed Kassie with unstable (emotional) behaviour caused by yours truly. Now that I think about it, white lancer was mafia that game too, but meh... it worked. I was happy. Wasn't completely sure it was white lancer either, he at least tried to hide it and that game could have continued if everyone weren't so emotionally distraught.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    Displeased. Haha. I like how you put it, Llight. Yeah, it was a little disconcerting, but it allowed for the game to get better so... I forgive and don't hold a grudge. That and I realize this is ONLY a game.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Helius

    No he wasn't... I was there. There was only me, Chief, Helius, and Kassie.

    But anyway, we need to get back to the game at hand.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    "chiefsonny silently raged"

    This is the 2nd or 3rd time you've made this statement.
    How do you know what I did in silence?

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    chiefsonny
     

    I'll do random one more TIME today and if I am not happy with the choice I will be serious.

    Well fuck that, it picked someone who wasn't even talking so I''ll have to be serious now.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Teddy-Son

    I dunno, it just seemed like an old man rage when you replied. "Also displeased" is probably a less evasive word for it, rather than "rage", sorry.

    Pretty sure there were 4 mafia that game, but yeah, I don't exactly remember it all off hand. I just remember how awesome I will be when anticipating whether or not the mafia or Vigilante chooses to kill me in the next night round.

    It's this that makes me believe that the cop role is only useful at a certain point (when he dies), when game mechanics prevail. The doctor is just a random save all the same.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    61 hours and 3 people have yet to vote. Is that right?

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    chiefsonny
     

    No one answered me earlier though. does anyone know what happens if votes get tied?

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    I have no idea knux. Maybe Yeano will respond.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    chiefsonny
     

    Also, if I am silenced, or killed in the night, theres a fair chance Llight is Mafia, as I am one of the ones who started this trend against him. Roxas is another possibility though. But then theres always the chance that they will leave us alone because I said this.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    Fun fact: I once defeated Yeano starring as the maria lover in a duel when he was mod of Duel Cards with Daid many, many years ago. LLight starring as Dark Chaos over an AIM battle (with the same AIM name I use today, btw). He said he could have won because he had 3 Magic Cylinders as face down traps when that card was restricted to 1 at the time.

    And general rule of thumb, Knuckles is usually wrong.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    thanks anyway, Chief.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    And general rule of thumb, Knuckles is usually wrong

    I was right about Xhin being Cult when he was suddenly so desperate to speak of the Cult the way he did to make himself look like he isn't.

    But anyway, your getting desperate now. You know i'm on to you, and you are picking at my ignorance to sway votes away from you.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    does anyone know what happens if votes get tied?

    "If there is a tie in votes cast, no one will be killed."

    From [d:230] under Day Round.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Yeano

    So I think that lynching via vote should be prohibited until the Vigilante dies.

    I don't even care if you're mafia, you can live.

    -Both said by LLight

    So you want us to just sit back while the Mafia kills us off one by one, even if it means waiting for the Vigilante to be a non-factor and the Mafia possibly having the winning advantage by that time? Yeah, want us to get you a nice little space heater too? I said it in the last day round that I was not okay with idly standing by and letting the Mafia taking shots at us. I'd prefer us to at least put up some sort of fight against them. And anyone notice how LLight is the only "Townie" who seems to have this mindset about the Mafia? Yeah, he raises some good points, but in my mind's eye it's to save his own ass. Therefore, my vote stands for LLight this round. I'll take the twenty eight or so percent chance that we hit a member of the Mafia, regardless of them being Thug, Silencer, Executioner, Mafioso or the Godfather.

    Llight i feel like this is the opposite of what youve been saying the last few games.

    That makes at least three of us, CtR.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    `Roxas`

    You've only been right for 1/5 games. My track record is much better.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    IN FACT, When have you ever been this desperate to defend yourself, Llight?

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    Oh, thanks Yeano... I read those once, and I must of overlooked it.

    What Roxas said.

    Track record means little to NOTHING in this game, and you know it, and we all know some time or later, you will be mafia.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    No Roxas, I want you to sit back while the Vigilante takes care of business. There's a 5/15 33.33% chance that the Vigilante hits a mafioso and a 1/11 9.09% chance of the mafia selecting him as the target to kill during the night round.

    There's no preventative measure in avoiding a mafia kill, so we're at the very least guaranteed a -1 townie at night. It's better than -2 when the Vigilante is wrong and a -3 when Vigilante and town vote is wrong.

    The mafia are statistically at a disadvantage of hitting the Vigilante whereas the Vigilante has a better chance of hitting them rather than votes being influenced by the cop or mafia.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    And general rule of thumb, Knuckles is usually wrong.

    lol. true, but emphasis on usually. so he *may* be right this time.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    CtR Black

    What is your role then, Llight. If you don't mind me asking. Because you seem to be implying vigilante by how you are talking.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    Knuckles, CtR and Roxas now? It seems as more and more people are piling up on Llight seems legit. But you guys know if you vote you have to go for "Vote for" or your vote wont count. I think I shall be following the crow this time. The crowd changes their mind, I follow that.

    I can't think of any other reason why I should not follow the crowd.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Teddy-Son

    The way I'm perceiving what you're saying is that you want eleven people to go with one person's gut instinct, something which I find to be unfair to the entire town. I believe we should go with any evidence from this game and correlate it to how a person plays the game in prior games, and right now it appears you are contradicting everything you've done in previous games. This leads me to believe that you are Mafia.

    I'll take the twenty eight or so percent during the day and the twenty four or so percent at night that we hit Mafia, instead of a zero percent chance during the day and thirty three percent chance at night. To me, it seems that you are playing a completely different style of game this time around than any of the games we've completed to this point.

    If the town does end with the decision to lynch somebody, I'll be more than happy to take the risk of being part of the sixty six or so percent of being struck by the Vigilante tonight or the one hundred percent chance of being hit by the Mafia. I don't really care if I survive the game, so long as my side wins. And currently, I believe you are a hindrance to the town.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    `Roxas`

    What is your role then, Llight. If you don't mind me asking. Because you seem to be implying vigilante by how you are talking.

    Still a townie, but you won't know anything until I die. Me telling you what role I am is not solid proof of anything. The same goes for everyone else here because we won't know a person's role until they die. This theory lies solely on the Vigilante though.

    ----

    @Roxas:
    You'd rather take a 5/16 31.56% multiple person influenced vote rather than a 5/15 33.33% Vigilante chance?

    If we vote:
  • 1/4 chance: Town is right and Vigilante is right, we 0 townies. Mafia kill -1 townies. Vigilante and Town kill -2 Mafia, -1 townies total.
  • 1/4 chance: Town is wrong and Vigilante is right, we -1 townies. Mafia kill -1 townies. Vigilante kill -1 Mafia, -2 townies total.
  • 1/4 chance: Town is right and Vigilante is wrong, we -1 townies. Mafia kill -1 townies. Town kill -1 Mafia, -2 townies total.
  • 1/4 chance: Town is wrong and Vigilante is wrong, we -2 townies. Mafia kill -1 townies. 0 Mafia loss, -3 townies total.

    If we don't vote:
  • 1/2 chance: Vigilante is wrong, we -1 townies. Mafia kill -1 townies. 0 Mafia loss, -2 townies total.
  • 1/2 chance: Vigilante is right, we -1 townies. Mafia kill -1 townies. Vigilante kill -1 Mafia. -1 townies total.

    There is less margin for error if only one person is deciding. There's also the possibility that the town is right in their vote and the Governor disagrees and cancels everyone's vote and we either -1 townie if the Vigilante is right or -2 townies if the Vigilante is wrong (Governor action does not negate Vigilante during the night round). As you can see, the greatest loss is only possible if the town votes. Likewise, the greatest gain is if both the Town and Vigilante are right. Overall there is a 3/4 chance that we lose a minimum of -2 townies if we vote and a 100% chance that we lose a minimum of -1 townie per night round if we don't vote.

    Preservation is the better option because it keeps us alive for more rounds. More rounds a cop or ghoul could use to identify roles (inb4 ghoul is already dead and inb4 lolundead).

    • April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    I don't believe you. I fact I think thats just a cleverly masked scheme to make people think. Well, he said he was a townie, and he also said there is no way we can no for sure of that.

    Plus the evidence keeps piling against you.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    We still have 3 people that have not voted. With the amount of discussion we have been getting I hope that Yeano lets this round go at least a full 48 hours so these other players can respond. We know they have not been silenced.
    I for one would like to see if they are going to be active in the-game.

    And 2 of those 3 have always been very active players.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    chiefsonny
     

    What evidence? Nothing anyone says here is indicative of their role.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    Other than preservation which only prolongs the fact that eventually, most of us won't make it. I see no point in wasting time to take out possibilities of the Mafia. Right now, you are #1 on my list because you've brought up two dead roles just this round alone (ghoul and double-vote) while knowing very well they are out of play. You're also, as I've already said, playing an entirely different game this time around as opposed to the other games, and this makes me uncomfortable keeping you in the game. My vote will stay as it is for this round.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    `Roxas`

    What evidence? Nothing anyone says here is indicative of their role

    circumstantial evidence, I suppose.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    I said I'd focus more on the psychology this time around and that's what I'm doing, but like always I'm not afraid to say anything, that much has not changed. Most of us will make it if we don't vote this round as the probability stands.

    Majority is at 5 No Kill.
    Minority is at 4 LLight kill.

    One more vote for me and the Executioner can execute me during the night or day round. Yeano has not been clear on this.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    Circumstantial evidence is me seeing you click on the mafia thread through the People tab. This is herd mentality.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    And Malas #85 has spoken this round, he just hasn't voted. That just leaves Shadowwalked.

    So UNLESS i'm missing something.

    Shadowwalked is the only one who could be silenced.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    Disregard the above post, I seem to have forgotten Zanic was silenced by reading I THINK Chiefs post.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    If Shadowwalked is silenced, he should reply somewhere on the site a couple of times.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    Dosn't matter, point is, theres a lot of reasons to believe you are Mafia. As seen scattered through out this thread. Someone should really compile all the reasons together.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    Also Zanic was for sure silenced because he was the only one who was host killed for talking while silenced this round.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    "If Shadowwalked is silenced,"

    Zanic was the one silenced and was killed mid day for talking while silenced.

    Sorry must have been typing while you were posting. Us old men type slow.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    chiefsonny
     

    That's the thing, the probability won't really be in the Town's favor until it is too late for us! So just stop with the probability bullshit that is obviously swaying people's decisions to vote as they want.

  • And Zanic was host-killed for talking because he was SILENCED.

    Nobody else could possibly have been silenced, so just drop talk of a silenced player.

    • April 22, 2012
    Edit
    `Roxas`

    It's like I said, Knuckles is usually wrong. My track record of 4/5 of being right vs Knuckles 1/5 of being right. Who was it that said it in one game, you understand self-preservation?

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    I ninja'd you guys so hard just now.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    Boo

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Teddy-Son

    Uh, I already corrected my error. Why do you all have to keep doing that? Llight, seriously, the rest may not know better, but YOU are just trying to make this into something it's not, and protect yourself. I made an honest mistake, and I admitted it as such.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    You're about to make another one once anyone else votes for me. I can only hope the doctor steps in if I don't die during the day round.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    Llight, you realize you just keep bowlshitting the same old excuse. Your playing who do you want to listen to. But theres a decent chance you are indeed Mafia, and when you are, you will lie about being such. So don't pull that track record shit on me.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    I'll take my chances. Your getting desperate, I can see it in your every reply. The Townie sided Llight I know wouldn't say something like "You're about to make another one once anyone else votes for me." Which leads me to believe only the mafia sided Llight would say that.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    One more vote for me and the Executioner can execute me during the night or day round. Yeano has not been clear on this.

    The Executioner kill counts as a Day Round kill.

    Also, just to clear things up. 1/3 of 17 (this round started with 17 players, so the total number of votes is 17, even though there are 16 players remaining) is greater than 5. Therefore, 6 votes is counted as the minimum number of votes for the Executioner to kill someone during this round.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Yeano

    since we know he was the only silenced person we should really evaluate those who were silenced next round.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    CtR Black

    There's as much chance of me being mafia as there is of you being mafia. Everything else is just emotional conjecture. Knuckles has entered an unbalanced state.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    since we know he was the only silenced person we should really evaluate those who were silenced next round.

    If you mean who was silenced LAST round, it could only be Redack, cause Zanic was the only other who didn't talk, and the silencer can't silence someone two rounds in a row.

    There's as much chance of me being mafia as there is of you being mafia. Everything else is just emotional conjecture. Knuckles has entered an unbalanced state.

    Oh I know that. But I know what I am. And I am pretty sure of what you are. And I am quite stable. Your just getting so distraught that your being found out, and you are using anything possible.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    (1/3)*17=5.67 sounds good to me. Rounded up to 6.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    Track record speaks for itself bro. You were also this sure when you got Xhin (our doctor) killed that one game.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    (1/3)*17=5.67 sounds good to me. Rounded up to 6.

    Additionally, for the record, even if it were 16 total votes, the necessary vote minimum would still be 6.

    This is because 5 votes falls short of 1/3. 5/16 = 0.3125, which is less than 1/3.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Yeano

    Track record speaks for shit if you are mafia and purposely lying. I'm done with you. I've had enough of your bowlshit arguments meant to save yourself that go on and on about the same worthless thing. It's ridiculous. Come back when you obtain a better defense mechanism.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    Track record means nothing in each new game. Player vs Player, yes. But overall in each game? I don't believe so.

    And are you now insinuating that you are a special, Town-sided role, LLight? Because that's how it seems.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    `Roxas`

    There's no conclusive evidence to support your claim as there is a 5/16 31.56% that anyone is mafia. There are 5 mafia and 16 total players.

    You're also ripping some vocabulary from our previous encounters. You unconsciously mimed "distraught" from this post in reply 1335063811 and "defense mechanism" from our little lecture in Complaints [p:62763]. You also tend to use the word "bowlshit" in your emotional state, so yes, I'd say you are emotionally imbalanced right now. It fits your out of game personality, snug like a glove. The next step if you aren't being flamed is trouble.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    Really, you said I'm playing differently from previous games, then you say that track record is meaningless. You base your vote saying you'd rather take the smaller chance that we're wrong in reply 1335066714, then disregard probability all together in 1335069013. You also based a vote reason as valid for bringing up two dead roles when bringing up dead roles is not indicative of roles either. In one game, this is the same mistake that outed #85 as mafia in game 2. He based suspicions on people who were not warranted and that is what you are doing now.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    Oh, I'm not silenced. I'm playing the Diablo Beta. I'll read through everything when the server goes down again.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Shadowwalked

    This is because 5 votes falls short of 1/3. 5/16 = 0.3125, which is less than 1/3

    0.33333333333333333333333333333333 = (1/3)
    0.33333333333333333333333333333333 * 16 = 5.3333333333333333333333333333333
    5.3333333333333333333333333333333 / 16 = 0.33333333333333333333333333333333

    0.33333333333333333333333333333333 = (1/3)
    0.33333333333333333333333333333333 * 17 = 5.6666666666666666666666666666667
    5.6666666666666666666666666666667 / 17 = 0.33333333333333333333333333333333

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    -Sits quietly eating popcorn while watching the fight. He whispers "I wonder who is the bad guy the hedgehog or the guy who blinded us the Hhim?"-

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Teddy-Son

    I'm just saying you need to stop hiding behind a mask of probability. We're not going to get anywhere if we don't take a chance, and I'll take my chances that you are Mafia. I'd rather be proven wrong through theory than to be kept alive like a pig going to slaughter.

    When I say track record, I mean in terms of being right or not in past games, not how one plays the game. I've played a relatively consistent game, just as Knux has. I find it odd that you would suddenly want to change your strategy of game play unless you were a role you wanted nobody to know about, specifically a Mafia-sided one.

    I think it's more so dumb luck than anything that you've yet to be killed off (outside of Game One when you broke into the Mafia thread). Damn near everybody else who has been in the game from the start has been killed off in some non-Host Kill form or another except for you.

    I never said that dead roles proved what role you are, I just find it odd that you were bringing up roles that everybody knew were no longer active in the game as, or what came off as, a barrier to protect yourself.

    And all you're really doing is using the same counter argument against any one bit that is spoken against you.

    The only person who is not open to voting this round, most likely to protect your future interests in this game.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    `Roxas`

    For the purposes of analyzing which roles (including dead roles) are reliant on voting is not indicative of role. Whether the role is live or dead does not detract from the analysis of a role's capability when a strategic theory is introduced.

    Stating all possible outcomes is not a smokescreen. There are very few truths you can determine in this game and those outcomes are all possible.

    I'm just saying you need to stop hiding behind a mask of probability. We're not going to get anywhere if we don't take a chance, and I'll take my chances that you are Mafia.

    You contradict yourself when you say "stop hiding behind probability", then go on about chance. Chance is DEFINED by probability (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/chance?s=t). I shit you not. Now what I'm saying is that your chances are GREATER and safer if you vote No Kill this round because the town is entirely capable of killing Mafia during the Night round (at a much reduced margin for error). I also presented proof in reply 1335068570.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    Well I'll be going to bed soon don't kill each other guys! night!

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Teddy-Son

    Llight is apparently going robot psychopath on us tbh. It's about the most annoying thing i've ever seen, it's not even worth arguing with him.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Knukles2000

    I'm inclined to believe LLight for now (which I'll admit could be falling into a clever deception) because right now it seems the logic for lynching him is far more flawed than the alternatives.

    You're saying we should lynch him because he's playing differently. There's new roles, one of which allows the mafia to get an extra kill in if one third of the votes goes to someone. His more cautious attitude could be a result of that...

    I'd also note that suspicion has only fallen on him because I questioned why he'd tried to get me to post somewhere whilst silenced. Which lancer then pointed out was consistent with him trying to find loopholes to exploit and LLight has shown further examples... So I can't help but wonder would you all be jumping at him if I hadn't said that to begin with? I suspect you wouldn't and we'd either have you all doing a no kill or a random vote.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Redack

    Sorry, LLight. But rest easy knowing your death isn't in vain. We will gain invaluable info from this.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Feral

    Actually it would be, I'm better off alive to you regardless of role. I'd like to see my theory pan out since a No Vote is statistically the better choice.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    I just have a horrible feeling you guys are going to kill off a valuable role based on nothing {:?}

    And if he turns out to be just a regular townie, we'll learn nothing from his death. His sacrifice is only valuable if he's mafia.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Redack

    Actually it would be, I'm better off alive to you regardless of role. I'd like to see my theory pan out since a No Vote is statistically the better choice.

    How does this work again?

    You've been playing this game as if it's a purely statistical game where the outcome is based entirely on clean roll-of-the-dice luck. The doctor will protect someone at random, the vigilante will kill at random, the mafia will kill at random, etc. The game doesn't work like that. The doctor will protect someone they think will be killed by the mafia, the vigilante will kill someone they find suspicious, and the mafia will kill someone they find intimidating. Luck plays a part if we go for random actions, but people will obviously be more likely to go on their gut instincts and vote someone that looks suspicious. In that regard, if you are mafia you'd be dangerous to have around as you'd be more manipulative.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    MajorasMask9

    It's the opposite, statistics are not prone to manipulation if the given values are correct whereas player logic is more prone to being manipulated by mafia and cop. In this discussion, those who deviate from a provable truth are more likely to be mafia. Those who have deviated from provable logic are 'Roxas' and MajorasMask9 this round. Teddy-Son and Knuckles aren't actually suspicious because it fits their out of game personalty. Feral has a herd mentality mindset even outside of the game, so that fits as well.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    Oh do me next, what's my mentality!

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Redack

    k, Redack is complicated even outside of the game so I can only describe him in comparison to other people. I would find it odd if you came up with logic like 'Roxas'. We disagree often and he usually has sound judgment. This is what differentiates you from someone like Feral or Teddy. 'Roxas' hasn't done much moderating, but he usually agrees with the idea that makes the most sense (Redack wouldn't agree with Knuckles outside of the game when he's like this). Redack is also one of the few moderators who can soundly disagree with me.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    Oh stop, you {*^_^*}

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Redack

    It's the opposite, statistics are not prone to manipulation if the given values are correct whereas player logic is more prone to being manipulated by mafia and cop. In this discussion, those who deviate from a provable truth are more likely to be mafia. Those who have deviated from provable logic are 'Roxas' and MajorasMas9 this round. Teddy-Son and Knuckles aren't actually suspicious because it fits their out of game personalty. Feral has a herd mentality mindset even outside of the game, so that fits as well.

    You're being totally ridiculous. If we're going to play the game entirely random based on statistics, why don't we just make a java applet that simulates the mafia game instantaneously and call it a day? No point dragging it out and discussing how the statistics don't lie every day for a week or two.

    I'm saying people will naturally stray away from the random-vote idea. It's what makes mafia a game. Would you want to sit back and random vote when you see someone that's acting blatantly suspicious just to have the game go to its calculated outcome? People will naturally want to vote for the suspicious person, which is probably why you have 5 votes for yourself already in this round alone. That fact should show you that the idea of random voting isn't going to work in a game like this.

    Also you've spelled my name wrong twice in this thread.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    MajorasMask9

    I think it was 2 games ago, you were making more sense vs the mafia when you were town sided. It was one of those "he makes so much sense that even if he was mafia, he deserved to win". I do not get that vibe this game.

    Have you not caught on? It's not the random voting itself but the premise for it is grounds for discussion in identifying mafia. Besides, random voting is exempt from manipulation because it's the most unbiased decision you could ever make in this game. Those who can't bounce ideas with me are more likely mafia, especially so if you're a smart guy like MajorasMask9 or 'Roxas'.

    Sorry about the name misspelling, people do that with my name all the time and it's slightly annoying.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    Those who have deviated from provable logic are 'Roxas' and MajorasMask9 this round.

    So in the grand scheme of the game, not voting you out proves nothing? Not buying it.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    `Roxas`

    Not voting anyone out minimizes the margin for human error. Let the Vigilante take action. See reply 1335068570. It should be your bible for this round.

    And to be honest, I'd rather be killed by the Vigilante rather than risking the higher chance that the town could be wrong.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    The vigilante killing at random doesn't seem smart, it's the same as lynching at random, which at this point is stupid. Our main priority right now should be keeping the cop alive as long as possible, meaning no-kill should be our vote and the vigilante's vote until the cop can reveal information. The cop is the most important role in the game, and random voting all the time this early is just asking for the cop to die.

    I also don't understand your idea of anyone that doesn't agree with your ideas being mafia. I don't agree with a lot of what you've said this round, and I myself know that I'm not mafia. I can't prove that, but that isn't the point.

    You've been coming across as a condescending ass this game, and if this is part of your strategy I don't really like it at all. It's making people want to vote for you and we don't need that right now. I personally think you're probably a townie, so I'm not going to vote for you right now. Just stick with the no-kill I thought we agreed on, let the cop make his checks, see where that brings us in a day or two.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    MajorasMask9

    I have one major suspicion, and two minor ones.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    #85

    The Vigilante is not killing at random. It's as you said, they will select whoever they believe to be suspicious. Probability, possibilities and outcomes are there because we don't know who the Vigilante will kill. You should be more concerned on locating that role because you have no way of telling who their vote is influenced by. That's not going to happen given the previous attempt of trying to convince people to reveal their role. You would have never done this as a town sided role. The way you argue is almost as important as what you're arguing about.

    I also don't understand your idea of anyone that doesn't agree with your ideas being mafia. I don't agree with a lot of what you've said this round, and I myself know that I'm not mafia. I can't prove that, but that isn't the point.

    That's right, you didn't understand it when it worked on identifying #85 as mafia in another game. The town will figure it out later if they can't realize it now, that's the beauty of the strategy. Leaves room to identify more people when matched against their out of game personality. This strategy is more suited for people like hezekiah, Shadowwalked, and white lancer at the moment (anyone who has pitched a ploy in the prediction of all possible outcomes, really).

    You've been coming across as a condescending ass this game, and if this is part of your strategy I don't really like it at all.

    I'm generally a condescending prick outside of the game, so this fits my personality. Anyone disagree?

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight

    I'm generally a condescending prick outside of the game, so this fits my personality. Anyone disagree?

    I'd agree. You definitely can be {:)}

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Redack

    6 votes is a little over 1/3 of 16, waiting for executioner kill because I'm just that good of a target.

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    LLight



    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Shadowwalked

    I'm generally a condescending prick outside of the game, so this fits my personality. Anyone disagree?

    Well I don't talk to any of you guys outside of the game except for Yeano so I wouldn't know anything about you :). Just some things you've said have been off. Pointing out the dueling cards thing with Yeano with no apparent reasoning, for example. What was the point in mentioning that?

    I'm still trying to figure out what you're implying in this paragraph:

    The Vigilante is not killing at random. It's as you said, they will select whoever they believe to be suspicious. Probability, possibilities and outcomes are there because we don't know who the Vigilante will kill. You should be more concerned on locating that role because you have no way of telling who their vote is influenced by. That's not going to happen given the previous attempt of trying to convince people to reveal their role. You would have never done this as a town sided role. The way you argue is almost as important as what you're arguing about.

    I never said in this game that we should mass roleclaim, in fact I've said the exact opposite. The only person that need reveal at any point in the near future is the cop, and the only time anyone else should claim would be if someone FALSELY claims a power role.

    In the last game a mass roleclaim could have been beneficial, but obviously people didn't like that idea and kept quiet anyway. Mass roleclaiming does have benefits, people!

    The vigilante should not kill this round. I've already said why in practically every game we've played: We need to give the cop more time to check and reveal information. To quote myself from game 2: "The hardest part of being a cop is figuring out the best time to reveal your information; if you reveal too early you'll most likely be killed and won't be around for the endgame, but if you wait too long you could die before you reveal anything." Vigilante kills contribute to the speeding up of the cop's inevitable demise just as much as a mafia kill or a random lynch. If they kill a townie (~66% chance if we go by random, or more or less if we're adding in the effect of player manipulation) then the mafia will also kill a townie, limiting the possible cop options for the mafia. Ideally we need a smart doctor with no-kills in the beginning to limit deaths and give the cop a better chance to actually provide us with information.

    April 22, 2012
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    MajorasMask9

    Tactics have evolved since last game, Majora. I have defeated death whether you know it or not. Bringing up DC with Yeano is just to see if he's reading. The purpose was to get the host more involved in the game since the questions were outstanding since the first day round. It also pulls some psychology strings making the kill on me more likely, but why you ask? I have defeated death.

    There's actually no reason for an executioner kill unless I don't die by vote. The 1/3 vote is a contingency plan with higher priority than the night round kill for mafia during the day round.

    Role claims are too risky to use and the only moment that's worth it is at the last moment.

    April 22, 2012
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    LLight

    Tactics have evolved since last game, Majora.

    -----

    I never said in this game that we should mass roleclaim, in fact I've said the exact opposite. The only person that need reveal at any point in the near future is the cop, and the only time anyone else should claim would be if someone FALSELY claims a power role.

    In the last game a mass roleclaim could have been beneficial, but obviously people didn't like that idea and kept quiet anyway. Mass roleclaiming does have benefits, people!

    April 22, 2012
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    MajorasMask9

    Well this certainly is a shitstorm. To be honest, I haven't noticed anything out of character in how LLight is acting. I'm still not really sure where 'Roxas' vote for LLight came from, but then again I just woke up a bit ago and I'm a bit out of it.

    April 22, 2012
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    Shadowwalked

    @Shadowwalked is that a vote for Redack using the roll. If so you may want to edit your post and put You vote for Redack with a random vote.
    May make it easier on Yeano.

    April 22, 2012
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    chiefsonny
     

    I still do not see the point in random voting or voting for LLight right now. I've said that no-kill would be smartest right now and I'm standing by that. Random vote seems like a bad idea in general. Maybe if LLight was a bit more suspicious I wouldn't have a problem voting for him, but I don't really see anything indicating he's mafia despite the fact that I loathe the way he's acting.

    April 22, 2012
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    MajorasMask9

    Oh, I was just rolling for shits and giggles. Considering the current tally, the round could go both ways, and I haven't really seen any factors to vote for LLight.

    That, and Knuckles is voting for LLight, and as pointed out earlier:

    Knuckles is the epitome of bad decisions.

    April 22, 2012
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    Shadowwalked

    I agree with MajorasMask9 though, a vote for No Kill is the only other thing you can do with the pack mentality already in place. The executioner may or may not make his move and if he does, it'll be at the last moment. I'm also the biggest threat to mafia regardless or role, even if that role is "dead", so rest assured, because the executioner can make a move, he probably will because it's never been done before.

    April 22, 2012
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    LLight

    I agree with MajorasMask9 though, a vote for No Kill is the only other thing you can do with the pack mentality already in place.

    That, and whether or not you're executed can either:

    1) Reinforce the suspicion 'Roxas' has for you.

    2) Help us determine what kind of Mafia we're dealing with. Certainly a decision on their part will help us see the types of people we're up against.

    Of course, you not being lynched during the day prevents the Gove'nah from stepping in, which would have been pretty interesting. Ohwell.

    April 22, 2012
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    Shadowwalked

    I'm going to jump on the wagon and vote Llight. You guys need to chill, it's hard as hell to keep up with the posts.

    April 22, 2012
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    Malas

    If you change it back to No Kill, that leaves the ball in the mafia's court for action because if they don't kill me during the night round, they will do it during the day round with the executioner and are obligated by game design to try to convince the town to lynch someone. Coincidentally if the Governor steps in, the Executioner can still act. Asset denial is good, but the truth is either side can use me to their advantage.

    You screw the town by not reading and understanding.

    April 22, 2012
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    LLight

    Wow, a lot has happened in this post since I last checked it. Here are my thoughts:

    1. I'm not entirely convinced that LLight is Mafia, but he does seem to be our biggest (and, indeed, only) suspicion at this time.

    2. If the Town really wants to kill LLight off (which appears to be the case), we shouldn't vote him off because a Vigilante kill would be more helpful. Here's why:

    a) If LLight is any Mafia member other than the Thug, then the Vigilante will kill the Thug instead. This will get rid of one Mafia member that we didn't already know about AND confirm to us that LLight is Mafia (we get two Mafia members rather than one).

    b) It prevents the Vigilante from taking a random shot in the dark and potentially hitting one of our power roles. The Vigilante can either help us or really, really hurt us, and I'd rather they not kill at random. Besides, if we're wrong on LLight, he has confessed to being a normal Townie so at least we're not losing a power role.

    3. Whatever happens during the rest of the Day, the Governor should prevent all day killings no matter what this round. This is because LLight has already reached the minimum for the Executioner kill, and if it turns out that LLight is Mafia but not the Thug the Mafia will want to execute him to prevent my above strategy (the Vigilante kill).

    4. If we decide to let the Vigilante take care of LLight during the Night round, the Cop should not investigate LLight, as he's going to die anyway. Use your check on someone else.

    April 22, 2012
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    white lancer

    Those are some good points White Lancer. I will gladly change my vote if enough people agree with you so that the probability of the vigilante agreeing and actually killing Llight is high.

    April 22, 2012
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    CtR Black

    Sounds like a fair enough trade off, essentially killing two birds with one stone. However, I will wait to make a final decision.

    April 22, 2012
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    `Roxas`

    Whatever happens during the rest of the Day, the Governor should prevent all day killings no matter what this round.

    Then why not let that play out. Wouldn't that prove to everyone that LLight is one of us and not Mafia.
    The Governor would not save a Mafia member.

    April 22, 2012
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    chiefsonny
     

    If I change my vote back to No Kill. The votes will tally as:

    Vote to kill LLight (7) - Feral, Teddy-Son, Knukles2000, 'Roxas', CtR Black, Malas, #85
    Vote for No Kill (7) - Xhin, LLight, Redack, Shadowwalked, Helius, white lancer, MajorasMask9

    You can see that in the menu below, but posts are better because you can see who voted for who and how many. This puts the votes at 7 vs 7 so by Yeano rule a tied vote means no one gets killed.

    Reduce the risk of killing power roles and give the Cop and Vigilante a few more turns to figure out some things. I'll go with the majority vote or stick to my Vigilante theory/strategy if the number remains even.

    April 22, 2012
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    LLight

    Interesting, I like white lancers plan.

    April 22, 2012
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    #85

    Any easy way to end the round is to notify Yeano:
    72 hours or 11 votes. There have been 15 votes so far.

    This suggests the host may have decided to see this play out until 72 hours is up or the Governor has already acted, leaving the Executioner room to act during the day round or mafia/vigilante to move at night to act on their suspicions. Since I'm the only suspect they will undoubtedly pick me or they won't. It's a hard decision to make so I ask that you look at reply 1335068570 again to see all possible outcomes.

    We are sitting at a vote for No Kill majority right now with a 50% chance that we lose 2 townie roles rather than a 75% where we lose 2-3 townie roles. With the executioner in effect townie losses are looking more like a minimum of 2-3 with a No Kill vote or 3-4 loss if we vote incorrectly. The consequences are greater if we vote.

    April 22, 2012
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    LLight

    The eleven votes meaning that the same person/option receives eleven votes, not eleven votes overall.

    April 22, 2012
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    `Roxas`

    Then why not let that play out. Wouldn't that prove to everyone that LLight is one of us and not Mafia.
    The Governor would not save a Mafia member.

    The Governor doesn't know who is or who isn't Mafia. They have no idea if LLight is innocent or not. The Mafia do, and the smart move for them would be to have the Executioner kill LLight no matter what (unless LLight is the Thug, because then it wouldn't really matter). If LLight is a Mafia member but not the Thug, the Mafia would save themselves from disaster by executing him today, but the Governor can prevent that if he "pardons" LLight.

    72 hours or 11 votes.

    That refers to votes for any specific option, not total votes. Yeano only ends the round early if there's a clear consensus among the Town as to what we will do (which means more than 60% of us vote for the same thing).

    April 22, 2012
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    white lancer

    I'm still not used to all of these new roles, good call Lancer.

    April 22, 2012
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    Malas

    This is an ambiguous wording problem. "11 votes" is vague because it does not indicate that they are total votes or total votes per person. Rule clarification is necessary.

    April 22, 2012
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    LLight

    As long as both the Thug and the Vigilante are in the game, I think it's ALWAYS more beneficial for the Town to let the Vigilante do our dirty work (there may be one or two exceptions to that, but only near the end of the game). These day rounds are important because they help us to organize our suspicions and try to convince the Vigilante of what the best choice would be, but ultimately there is a possibility for a huge payoff for the Town if we allow the Vigilante to do the killing.

    This is still true even if the Cop steps forward with Guilty verdicts--as long as the Cop knows fewer than 4 Mafia members, there's a chance that the Thug is still escaping our suspicions so we should let the Vigilante do his work.

    Vigilante justice FTW!

    April 22, 2012
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    white lancer

    Batman will save us.

    April 22, 2012
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    LLight

    Wow. I leave for one day and look what happens. We're about to lose LLight. Either he's a townie and the executioner will take care of him or he's a mafia and the vigilante will get him at night. But if LLight does die now, seems like about all the Vigilante could do is a random guess.

    I'm doing a No Kill for now, but that may change. Have we received confirmation about when the Executioner strikes?

    I had something else I was going to say, but won't yet... no sense giving the mafia any more ideas.

    April 22, 2012
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    hezekiah

    My guess is that the Executioner kills during the day, since the description says that he kills someone in addition to whoever actually gets lynched. If that's the case, then the Governor should be able to prevent that (note the emphasis on the Gov. preventing all day kills), and that's why I think he should activate his power today even if a No Kill vote wins out.

    April 22, 2012
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    white lancer

    It has been stated that way for a while now, and we've gotten the message. Why only now are you having concerns about the meaning of "x votes?"

    April 22, 2012
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    `Roxas`

    Yeano says in reply 1335070429 "The Executioner kill counts as a Day Round kill.".

    I'm thinking the kill could be executed at any time during the day round or it's resolved at the end of the day round (requires more clarification on Yeano's part). After reading this line again from the Round 1 post:

    Governor: "The Governor is a town-sided role that has the incredible power to pardon. He or she may choose to stop ALL killings from occurring during the day round."

    Executioner: The Executioner is a mafia-sided role. If a person, at any time during the day round, receives 1/3 of the total possible votes, the Executioner may elect to kill that person in addition to the person that is lynched.

    Looks like the Governor can negate the Executioner if he hasn't already done so.

    April 22, 2012
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    LLight

    What's been going on while I was gone? Any fights?

    April 22, 2012
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    Teddy-Son

    It looks like this is getting nowhere for the next forty five hours, so I guess I will, reluctantly, change my vote. The Vigilante or Mafia can decide it, as usual.

    April 22, 2012
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    `Roxas`

    Well, just as I said I'll follow the crowd and it seems we are leaning towards no kill and everyone else wont change their mind. I guess it will be easier for me I won't have to do much work that way.

    April 22, 2012
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    Teddy-Son

    That's 11 for No Kill, so the round can now end.

    April 22, 2012
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    hezekiah

    Not yet Hez, Yeano has to say so.

    April 22, 2012
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    Teddy-Son

    I said can end. And as far as I know, will end... if somebody changes their vote off of No Kill before he ends the round, is the round really over?

    April 22, 2012
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    hezekiah

    Night 2.

    After a fierce debate, the town ended their meeting with a super-majority not to kill. The town silently went back to their homes, awaiting the dark night.

    1. Zanic - Double-voter
    2. `Roxas`
    3. CtR Black
    4. white lancer
    5. Shadowwalked
    6. MajorasMask9
    7. Knukles2000
    8. Xhin
    9. LLight
    10. hezekiah
    11. Helius
    12. chiefsonny
    13. Bubba - Ghoul
    14. Malas
    15. Teddy-Son
    16. Feral
    17. Redack
    18. #85

    Mafia-Town Ratio: 5-11

    Roles: Godfather, Executioner, Silencer, Thug, Mafioso, Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Governor, Double-voter, Ghoul

    You have 24 hours to get night actions in.

    WARNING: If your role changes to "Silenced," you may NOT post in this thread. If you do, you will be host-killed.

    Edit: Updated it since I copied and pasted the wrong info (Zanic was still alive)

    Continued in [p:63185].

    April 22, 2012
    Edit
    Yeano

    Reply to: game 4 thread 2 night 2 the long debate has ended

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