Mafia

Nice going Bubba! Congrats!

And to the town. :) of course. I forgot to say. Don't hit me you guys. >.<

I was starting to regret my decision to kill Igga in the final hours. Thankfully, PN came through. I knew from the beginning keeping #85 alive would pay off, glad it worked out. {:P}

Great game to all. There was an explosion in the middle of the game with the mafia, and luckily enough one of us was able to get through and sneak to the end.

Very impressed, Bubba. Good work.

And thanks for a game very well-hosted, White Thunder.

Can't wait to read the dead thread. I'm positive White Lancer was going to kill me the night he died. That slip up of mine about LLight was mentioned a few times, but no one really ran with it.

Good game everyone.

My losing streak continues. :(

This was a really frustrating game to watch.

Great game played by Bubba.

This was a really frustrating game to watch.

I agree with this 100%. And I wasn't even dead that long.

Good game, White Thunder.

Great play by Bubba, but when you're the last one left, you're kind of in the spotlight. I'm sure you would have been killed if I lasted into the second round. {;)}

{roll}

When will the other threads be unlocked?

oh jk they already are

Oh God, that weid man chat log is killing me.

Man, I'm embarrassed of my game play with the weid man :/

this is what I get for listening to everyone's parting words instead of following my gut (cry)

welp, gg all the same, everybody


igga is the one person I was certain was innocent, so I would've strung you up in a second if you'd left him around (hehe)

Kinda rooting for you now. We shall see.

-White Thunder

Rigged game.

Also, Dooku and Speed Bike's roles revealed because of OOG.

I mean, just saying y'all. Just saying.

Great game Bubba. I figured out it was you when it was 7-1. The return of igga was a game changer. I knew it was obvious igga was town sided since he gave us Apollo early on, but I was really forced into the chiefsonny vote. My top 2 suspicions were PN and Bubba, and there was no way I could convince Jo of my innocence (cry)

General thoughts while reading the Dead thread,

-Castrael screwed up big time, I made the comment in the mafia thread how I wanted to bang my head against the wall when I read her posts in the game thread.

-Shadow went rouge on the mafia and used his hooker on someone else (can't remember right now) when it should have been used on Yeano. Sorry Shadow, but bad move. {:?}

-Oh man, halfway through the dead thread and the general consensus is that the Mafia stands no chance

-Hah, LLight is the one that contacted Igga? Stop screwing with us from the dead.

-

I cant see the dead thread

Screwed up the above reply, just read the last paragraph of the first quote block as if it's not part of the quote and comes after it.

oh, wasnt logged in lol

So, my emotion targeting post worked? Sweet.

nah, I was thinking more along the lines of the posts from Jo and chief before they died - they know the players around here better than I. Hell, I don't think I've said a word to 85 until this game.

The only thing from the final day that really affected my choice was what 85 did early on by casting a vote for one person, then implying he could be swayed to change to the other - almost like it didn't matter who he was voting for.

I really underestimated you, Bubba. I was the one who started the bandwagon saying Mafia never had a chance, after my early death, Shadow's bad play, and Weid, but you just never backed down. Trever did great while his luck lasted too.

#85, despite the town not winning, you were still easily the town MVP. Your theories were amazingly accurate, but you killed your trust from the start with the Godfather joke. PN and Zanic both also played excellent games. LLight and Chief were both spot on, but neither really tried to convince anybody of their thoughts. Jo only survived for so long because of his shockingly and laughingly bad play, that made him an easy scapegoat.

White Thunder, you were an incomparable host. You hosted the longest and hardest game in history.

I don't think the godfather joke killed his trust. I think #85 acted very, very guilty from the time Trever was eliminated until the end. The town really screwed up by not killing him, to be honest. Those two no kills and the chief kill (which I still don't understand) were disastrous.

Umm I literally had a single day round to play in this entire game. Now tell me that anything I did didn't convince or influence any of the subsequent rounds.

Also I kind of expected more from #85 given his past game performances. I guess he didn't have much time, this time around.

Major kudos to Bubba for pulling off a fantastic victory. I am glad you are the one that survived instead of me, I highly doubt the Mafia would have won if I had lived, considering what a red herring I am {:P}

Thanks feral. I was thinking in terms of numbers. I was a bit trigger happy. Either PN or Jo had to go if I had any Chance of getting Bubba out. Neither one would agree with my theory. I thought PN could put aside our passed differences and see my reasoning. I thought I had a pretty solid case.

-Shadow went rouge on the mafia and used his hooker on someone else (can't remember right now) when it should have been used on Yeano. Sorry Shadow, but bad move.

Rogue? I saw:

'Assassinate: Speed as the Doctor.
Group Kill: Majora
Hooker: Roxas'

So I set it up to target 'Roxas' and then went to bed.

This:

I really think we should hooker Yeano just to be safe.

and this

I still think the Hooker should sleep with Yeano, though.

I didn't end up seeing. My scheduling is pretty hectic, and I had lab in the morning, but I don't think 'Going rogue' is an appropriate conclusion.

Jo only survived for so long because of his shockingly and laughingly bad play

Hey, that's a little harsh, no need for that {:P} I disagree with that as it is. Jo was wrong on some accounts and pursued incorrect leads but he put his foot forward when no one else really would/could, not to mention he voted for me over and over on Day 1, even if it was just to get a point across. His first instincts were spot-on (joking or not, I suppose).

Also, trying to look at the game objectively from the dead thread, #85 did look pretty darn guilty on a few accounts. I don't really think the "I'm the Godfather" thing played into people's final decisions too significantly, but who knows. People tend to read into things that truly hold no value a lot in this game, but that's kind of you have to do in order to win, so eh.

Once again Bubba, sorry for ever underestimating you, I'm amazed at your performance. Hope to have you on my team again {8D}

LLight will probably be the first ever first round exit to receive good play points. He pinned mafia members using facts and like he said, dictated future rounds. The mafia killing Speed soon was a tough decision. We would eliminate Speed, but then would give the rest of his list credence, effectively putting the majority of the mafia in the crosshairs.

I do want to extend my hand to Speed for single handedly seeing through my Silencing trick, and eliminating me. That was a superb observation for a new-comer.

FYI, though, the RL issues I mentioned back in day 2 were true. Any mod can verify the discussion me and Xhin in the mod forum, prior to my departure.

a good bit of what you did late in the game made me wary, and the fact that I had a really ill-timed vacation there only compounded it. Relying on hotel wifi, mobile GT, and less than an hour of internet time a day makes it really hard to do any kind of thorough research. That final day was kinda the tipping point.

I know it’s short, but this is the current list of people I suspect could possibly have a power role:

Speed Bike Pro
Yeano
Chiefsonny
Zanic
Count Dooku

Wow Apollo. Very impressive. 5/5 there in the mafia thread.

I tried to sacrifice myself but Jo wouldn't kill me until late

{fp}

All the congrats to Bubba. Well played.

I wouldn't worry about Zanic pointing me out too much; people rarely listen to the poor chap.

I couldn't help but laugh at this post by Trev in the mafia forum. Him writing me off lead to his downfall.{:P}

lol'd a bit at Bubba guessing that I was the Apprentice. I would have done it regardless of role as always. That was just a coincidence since the style of play I chose was beneficial to the Apprentice because I would have done the exact same thing as a townie.

Yes, you did a great job hosting. The power roles on both sides were well-balanced, even though almost all of them died prematurely. {:P}

I think Yeano deserves some more points, but other than that it looks good.

Or just 1 more point, I should say.

6 whole points?!? Thanks guys. (:$)

I'm all for the "LLight Method". Adds another demension. Special thanks to you for accomadating my requests so I wouldn't be online when the rounds ended.

Also this:

You can earn 1 point for being a good host. If you are considered an "average" host, you will not gain points from hosting.

is definitely deserved. All of the updates were timely and his decisions fair, which is especially appreciated in such a large/long game. I also think this was White Thunder's first time hosting, which is even more impressive.

I agree for the most part with most of these points but I've quoted a few that stood out to me. First of all, what separates Apollo's "good play" from Trever's "great play"?

And on that note, LLight got "extremely accurate" points for making a list based on activity. Meanwhile, Apollo formed a list of town power roles using nothing but her intuition and nailed all 5 of the ones she guessed.

And one final thing, she had to deal more with weid than Cas did. She was badgered out of game as evidenced by the Skype chat logs.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, Apollo Justice died relatively early on in the game but during her time alive, she was the mafia's brightest mind and carried the team early on with her activity and strategy. Even in death, she left wise counsel for her fellow mafioso to heed. And besides, any mortal human being would have died IRL after 7 days of exposure to weid man in his final teh assassin form. She effectively played two roles and set her team up for success after her death. The defense rests, Your Honor.

Speed pls. Thank you, but you're giving me way too much credit. {:P}

First of all, what separates Apollo's "good play" from Trever's "great play"?

Trever made some pretty darn good contributions towards the end of his living time. He deserves the points he got, definitely.

Your reply makes me lol, at least.

Poor Count Dooku doesn't get any points. That's probably due to the fact that he was silenced for the majority of his life. I think that him suggesting that we keep going with Llight's list helped take out at least two mafia. I think he deserves at least 1 point.

wow

I think Yeano deserves some more points, but other than that it looks good.

I agree.

Also, not to beat a dead horse but I really think Jo deserves a point, if even just for effort.

I also think Jo deserves at least a point for the effort. I wasn't paying much attention to the game after I died admittedly, but it was obvious he put a lot of effort into his posts, and it's a shame to see him got 0 points.

I appreciate the point but I totally did screw up by giving the assassin away. :/

Weid has been bugging us both, @apollo and I, that's true.

Um, my list took out Speed + 3 mafia + 1 when The Bandit attempted to use it to kill weid by town lynch. There were other indicators for weid as mafia though. I explained them in the dead thread, but that's exactly half of the mafia done in by this tactic/strategy. Had I stayed alive for a second of two total rounds, every mafioso would probably be dead since I was just 1/8 incomplete.

Apollo was basically the puppet master assassin with weid man OOG though and she did great by even attributing a strategy that would net the mafia +2 townie kills in a single night had they followed through with it between getting Yeano/MM9 to off each other and later when Bubba used it on Jo Nathan/#85.

And I agree that Jo Nathan did a great job on his analysis even though his conclusion was wrong. The folly was being fixated on a single person.

My one disagreement would be with Castrael receiving points for anything other than being on the winning team. Sorry Cas, but you basically told the town you were the mafia.

He got like... 75% guilty cop checks?

Yeano I'm not so sure about- he played a good game but what made it great, exactly?

Yeano used a tactic that I'd never really seen and a lot of it had to do with coming out as the Cop so early on. It certainly confused the Mafia when he did that, and as you can see, he lived considerably longer than expected after his reveal, pretty much because the Mafia couldn't be sure whether or not he WAS the Cop (and maybe because some Town-sided folk found him suspicious anyways).

He seemed to have a decent strategy about who he checked, as well. Instead of checking people he found considerably suspicious, he appeared to check people he just couldn't read, which is what the Cop should be doing anyways.

I just think it was pretty neat how such a risky/uncommon strategy worked out well. At least, for the time he was alive.

Agreed with Apollo. I think I was the main person in the mafia who didn't want to kill Yeano. I never believed he was the actual cop until he died.

I'm grateful to those who feel I deserve a point, but I respectfully disagree. I may have posted a lot, but honestly I think I've even played better in other games where I received 0 points.

And y'all thought I was crazy when I said Bubba had a good chance at taking it at 7-1. {:P} The fact that no one was talking about him was a really, really bad sign and by the end I was surprised that #85 actually caught on to him. I can't say I blame PN for going with #85 over Bubba in the end, but I will say that I think there were some things in the way #85 played that just wouldn't make any sense from a Mafia's perspective (and I detailed most of those in the dead thread).

I have no major issues with a points--they're maybe a bit more generous than I would have been with a few of the +1 good playing points (and I'm including myself in that category), but that's the Host's discretion and there aren't really any that stick out to me as totally wrong. Re: Yeano, I think one point works--as I mentioned in the Dead Thread, he mostly went down LLight's list with his investigations and thus mostly got guilty verdicts on people the Town probably would have lynched anyway, and I don't think coming out early was the best way to play with the Hooker present.

Can't wait to read the dead thread. I'm positive White Lancer was going to kill me the night he died. That slip up of mine about LLight was mentioned a few times, but no one really ran with it.

Ooh, you have no idea how much I was kicking myself for not pursuing that further! I mean, I picked up on a full-on slipup by a Mafia member, pursue it a little bit, and then put it on the backburner to deal with later, and once I die that Mafia member winds up winning the game for his team! Really, what saved you there from me was the fact that I was so unfocused during the early parts of the game--I had made a couple of mistakes (like forgetting that the Hooker was in the game), so I wanted to pull back and reevaluate my suspicions before making any more rash moves. I was just getting ready to play in earnest, and you guys killed me... {:(}

-hezekiah, though not playing an exceptional game, seemed to totally get Bubba when literally no one else did until #85 at the game, so he gets an extra point for that.

I take issue with this! I actually considered joining with him to vote Bubba, but unfocused = unconfident = not acting. :-/

Um, my list took out Speed + 3 mafia + 1 when The Bandit attempted to use it to kill weid by town lynch. There were other indicators for weid as mafia though. I explained them in the dead thread, but that's exactly half of the mafia done in by this tactic/strategy. Had I stayed alive for a second of two total rounds, every mafioso would probably be dead since I was just 1/8 incomplete.

I agree completely, which is why I chose to take you out that first night. I pretty much bought your list and strategy as effective from the get-go, but I felt like it would really prevent us from having an actual game (simply knowing all the Mafia members right off the bat = not fun in my book), so I took the shot (and argued against your strategy in the main thread) in the interest of having a more fun game overall. Kudos for thinking out of the box, but I REALLY don't like that strategy, and unless there's significant opposition to it, I'm going to make an official rule to ban it from future games. Probably will make a separate post to let people sound off on the issue.

Reading through the Mafia thread has made me realize that I pushed Bubba just hard enough to let him know that I was onto him, but not hard enough to let anyone else know that I was suspicious of him. Um, whoops. {fp}

Speed said he will probably save white lancer tonight, though.

...I feel like this almost always happens to me. Whenever the Mafia decide to kill me, the Doctor thinks about protecting me but decides to save someone else. :( Although in this case, we had a Cop claim, so saving me would have been a worse move.

I'm dead certain Yeano isn't the cop though. I stand by what I said in the game thread, he wants the assassin power used on his self to identify a mafia member.

XD

Turns out to have worked out a little bit in your favor, though. I really wanted the Assassin to hit Yeano that night (didn't know you guys knew who the Doctor was, after all...), but Speed wound up protecting him and he would have survived. Although I still think the best night move for y'all would have been to Hooker and Assassinate Speed, Nightkill Yeano. Bam, Doctor and Cop gone in one night.

Also, I'm a little concerned about LLight talking about the game after he was dead, particularly since this is the second offense in a row...ruling will follow, although I'd appreciate corroboration of Apollo's statements in the Mafia thread before doing anything.

I agree completely, which is why I chose to take you out that first night. I pretty much bought your list and strategy as effective from the get-go, but I felt like it would really prevent us from having an actual game (simply knowing all the Mafia members right off the bat = not fun in my book), so I took the shot (and argued against your strategy in the main thread) in the interest of having a more fun game overall. Kudos for thinking out of the box, but I REALLY don't like that strategy, and unless there's significant opposition to it, I'm going to make an official rule to ban it from future games. Probably will make a separate post to let people sound off on the issue.

Haha I know and I don't blame you for that. Like I said in the land of the dead thread, it's not something that I would have normally revealed, but my ego wouldn't let it go because I wanted to (1) die early, and (2) change the playing field, which I think matches what I've done in previous games by figuring out all sorts of holes in the mechanics of this game by means of rules and forum features. Ahhhaaa guess I'm just one of those rare players that get a kick out of moulding something as special as GTX0 Mafia, there's like, a certain pride in knowing that I made this forum appear the way it does. I've had points held back because of what I've done and in ways that I could have disputed for more recognition when they were even less so generous when this forum and the game was new. I'm normally an aggressive player, but it's fun to play like this when people aren't tripping over their own balls saying wtf like they all did.

So basically with this new ruling, you can use my tactics as long as you never peep a word of them, but you may use it to your role's advantage. It takes a lot more effort in knowing the inter-player relationships outside of the game and the forums that they are likely to visit and/or frequent on a regular basis and what they're talking about OOG. You also have to take into account the major incidents going around the site such as Complaints and tournaments because you need to know why they would be posting there, if at all. A lot of the players that I didn't nail were because we were never online at the same time to discern their probable role or town alignment.

Also, I'm a little concerned about LLight talking about the game after he was dead, particularly since this is the second offense in a row...ruling will follow, although I'd appreciate corroboration of Apollo's statements in the Mafia thread before doing anything.

There are logs, yes. But it's also partly their fault for talking about it if they didn't want to draw out discussion on the topic of mafia OOG. I wouldn't even mind it if you zeroed out my points for this round or barred me from future games. Your call. Pretty sure we've reach an agreement on OOG etiquette in relation to this game to keep it in good spirits though.

Oh and there's no need to go easy on me if it appears as though I'm taking this well.

And the tactics were only reinforced when power players like white lancer and MajorasMask9 decided to fuck with the page refreshes while I was online for the sake of the spirit of the game. I was content with this.

I could provide the logs, but LLight's right, it wasn't just him coming out and randomly speaking about the game, it was being talked about before (but it was alive players giving their input, as opposed to him, who was dead at that point). Clearly it wasn't a huge influence in the game, it just really peeved me at the time because it could have planted seeds in people's heads that they wouldn't develop otherwise. I feel a little bad for getting so worked up over it, I shouldn't have been so overzealous about it, so as long as this kind of stuff doesn't happen again, I'm not worried and I don't think LLight needs to be reprimanded. Of course, white lancer, you're the executive host and it's up to your discretion, but like I said, I'm not worried about this happening again.

Reminder that OOG communication ruins the game and is just as enforceable as barring the dead from OOG communication.

Congrats to the Mafia for their win.

@Bubba, you played a great game. You made my list of players to watch{:P}

@White Lancer. Great job of hosting. It was a long and sometimes boring game, but you were always on your game.
And you now have the record for longest game{y}

Now for the points:

The only problem I have is giving igga a point for good playing, when on Day 10 or 11 you had decided to Host Kill him. He made 10 post the entire game and went 15 days without posting at all.

And at the same time Jo Nathan get's 0 points. JN might have been a little off his normal game, but he was active and posting. I think those points should be reversed.

Also once you know your decision on the points are set in stone, make a post and I will update the Player Scores Document at the top of the page.

Jeez finally. Maybe I can get to play this time.

That was pretty intense.

Uhh, chief, this was White Thunder's game, not lancer's.

Thanks, sorry my bad. That's what happens when you run your mouth use your keyboard before you put your brain in gear.{fp}

@White Thunder. Great job of hosting. It was a long and sometimes boring game, but you were always on your game.
And you now have the record for longest game{y}

The post above addressed to White Lancer was meant for you. Damn senior moments(sad)

So basically with this new ruling, you can use my tactics as long as you never peep a word of them, but you may use it to your role's advantage.

If this rule goes into place, I'm going to ask people to exercise self-control and not use that tactic even on their own. Obviously there's no way to monitor it, so that would have to be on the honor system...

Reminder that OOG communication ruins the game and is just as enforceable as barring the dead from OOG communication.

I'm none too fond of OOG communication myself, but I'm not going to ban it. I think there are enough players here who enjoy employing OOG communication and I don't want to let my preference override theirs, so while I personally will choose not to talk to people out of the game, I don't want to make that an overall rule. Besides, I don't think it's as game-breaking as dead talking is.

Individual hosts may choose to ban OOG communication from any game they hosted (and I noticed WT discouraged it), but that'll be up to their discretion.

I could provide the logs, but LLight's right, it wasn't just him coming out and randomly speaking about the game, it was being talked about before (but it was alive players giving their input, as opposed to him, who was dead at that point). Clearly it wasn't a huge influence in the game, it just really peeved me at the time because it could have planted seeds in people's heads that they wouldn't develop otherwise. I feel a little bad for getting so worked up over it, I shouldn't have been so overzealous about it, so as long as this kind of stuff doesn't happen again, I'm not worried and I don't think LLight needs to be reprimanded. Of course, white lancer, you're the executive host and it's up to your discretion, but like I said, I'm not worried about this happening again.

Well, um, given that LLight did this just last game, I AM a little worried about it happening again. If it were a one-time event, maybe it would be different, but then again I did reprimand Feral last game for something similar and that was his first offense. LLight didn't have to give his input on the game just because others (who happened to be alive) were, and he really should have known better.

So I have a few adjustments to the player scores for whoever winds up putting them up once Thunder has finalized them:

LLight - +0 (points voided for breaking game rules; this is the same punishment I gave Feral last game)

White Thunder - +1 (I agree with the consensus that he was a good host)

Hindenburg - -1 (per Thunder's wishes--guest hosts do have the ability to dock points for inactivity

LLight - +0 (points voided for breaking game rules; this is the same punishment I gave Feral last game)

Was it really a game rule before game 18 started though? I mean, don't get me wrong, I disagree with the strategy as well but I don't think LLight should be punished for something that wasn't necessarily forbidden when he did it.

If I'm missing a social cue and it was against the rules then disregard but I thought it was still within the confines of the game until the official rule change implemented after game 18 ended.

That's not the rule I was referring to, Speed--LLight certainly wouldn't be punished for the strategy he employed in this game since there was no rule against it. I'm referring to him discussing/speculating about the game with living players after he was dead.

I should also remind you that you're enforcing rules that haven't been updated in [d:232] and [d:230]. I wasn't around for the games that were reset because of OOG if there were any, but you also shouldn't be enforcing rules that aren't set in stone due to neglect.

Dead people may only talk about the game in the Dead Thread (unless otherwise specified by the Host).

This is the closest ruling, but it's ambiguous in the sense that anything outside of this forum is bound by local rules specific to this forum.

I will, however, point you in the direction of wording that might fit your fancy. You might also find new role ideas by browsing the site.

http://www.epicmafia.com/lobby/rules

All the new scores have been posted in the Players Scores Document at the top of the page. If I missed any let me know as I have a copy of before and after changes. I will put them in order later.

It seems pretty clear to me.

All right yeah, that was a dumb argument. Forget it. I don't actually think anyone would punish for talking about game mechanics when they don't even visit the site.

Thanks you guys for the extra point. {:D}

I have actually used Epic Mafia for role ideas both here and in IRL games. It's a very handy website for sure. :)

And yeah, I think the rule is clear enough. Also, even if I wanted to tweak the rules we have to make them more clear, I wouldn't be able to do that myself because I'm still not able to edit the documents in my own forum. >:-{

My main concern is that talking about the mechanics behind the game should be allowed rather than not talking about the game as a whole so long as it's not game or role revealing sensitive to anyone in particular. Like for instance, if you're dead or not part of the game you shouldn't say that something is off about Bubba because he used a unique word OOG that only someone in the Dead Thread would know, therefore has been communicating with the host in relation to mafia specific role sensitive information and therefore is mafia.

This happened during the game, but there were other signs before then, mostly in Day round 1.

You also talked about how this was my second offense? I think it was game 17.2? Well I don't think anyone should be accountable for the host's neglect where they forget to lock a thread about game discussion/feedback to non-mafia players when really that's what they should be doing. This happened in another game where Redack was silenced for a round and I suggested that he post there if he was silenced, so since the rules at the time specifically outlined that a silenced player could not post in the main thread.

My main concern is that talking about the mechanics behind the game should be allowed rather than not talking about the game as a whole so long as it's not game or role revealing sensitive to anyone in particular.

You can talk about the mechanics of a game, to a point. But talking about specifics about the current game, or strategies that someone on either side could take with any of the roles, is against the rules. That's why we have the Dead Thread--yammer away there to your heart's content. That's what I do! ;)

Well I don't think anyone should be accountable for the host's neglect where they forget to lock a thread about game discussion/feedback to non-mafia players when really that's what they should be doing.

You know, I disagree. Ultimately, oversight or not, whether or not you break the rules by talking in those threads is entirely on you--it's not like the Host forced you to post in that thread by accidentally leaving it open (although, incidentally, I don't believe you were punished for that offense anyway, so it's a bit of a moot point).

You know what, just leave it at game/role sensitive information like we discussed (somewhere) because whether or not that thread was part of the game is irrelevant, you're going to slam anyone anywhere if proof is presented.

Haha yeah, I know why this ruling was gay. I prompted it to happen: [p:65172].