Mafia

I'm kinda surprised Jo didn't take a shot last night, especially at FAW who is confirmed Mafia. But I guess it doesn't make that much difference in the long run.

Last round, Majora tried to argue that I don't have a case. That's just wrong, and CtR's brilliant move as the Governor makes my case that much stronger. Firstly because I think that if nothing else, you guys should be able to tell that my reaction at the end of the last day was genuine--I thought I was dead and that we had just pretty much lost the game.

Secondly, and more importantly, I'm going to go back to the roleclaim. I advocated for that roleclaim hard and set it in motion, which would have been a terrible move for me if I had known that all of the special roles were still alive. Had CtR roleclaimed at that time, the list of suspects would have instantly been reduced to 5, 3 of which were Mafia, and we had 4 chances to kill. That would have left me with only 2 outs, and I would have had to convince the Town to lynch both of them. That gave the Mafia a very small margin of error, which is why Majora was reluctant to embrace the roleclaim that round (he knew all the special roles were still around).

Next, look at how consistently I've been going after Majora. I started mentioning suspicion of him on the second day, before the roleclaim and everything else. I put myself in direct opposition to one of the best players in the game, which would have been really, really stupid of me if I were Mafia. Drawing the attention of my biggest threat in the game makes ZERO sense for me unless I am innocent and just convinced Majora is Mafia. It makes even less sense when you consider that Helius was dead by that point and hezekiah had already called attention to himself--why would I put myself in the spotlight so much, against such a strong debater/player, when half the Mafia team was already mostly compromised?

Looking back, it's clear that Majora has had one really brilliant play this game: he threw hezekiah under the bus immediately after he realized that people were suspicious of him. The ENTIRE purpose of this move was so that he would have, as he put it last round, a 'case' for his innocence, and thus far you've fallen for it hook, line and sinker, Feral. It had me fooled because I was so sure Majora was guilty that I thought hezy was probably innocent, and it almost ensured the Mafia's victory because no one would believe that both of them were guilty. He wouldn't even be at risk at all if it weren't for the roleclaim.

I'm freaking stoked that I managed to sniff him out so early on in the game, but I'm going to be so frustrated if people ignore me AGAIN and throw the game away. Majora and FAW are the last two Mafia members left and CtR's move last round gave us a second chance to seal the deal. Please don't blow it.

Your reaction isn't proof at all. Something that's been on my mind since the governor reveal is that the mafia must have known the governor was still alive. Castrael would be a townie, and chief hinted at being the double voter when he was still alive. The mafia knew full well that one of the "townies" was lying and was the governor. I'll admit, your reaction even initially made me think you were possibly innocent, but if it was all an act for the sake of a governor-prevented lynch, it doesn't mean much, and we'd have no way to prove it.



Except, I WASN'T reluctant to roleclaim. Yes, at first I was, but look back to the day when we did. I was reluctant because I didn't want the vigilante to be narrowed down easily. As soon as we had a vigilante roleclaim, I had no objections claiming. I'm sure this was a common thought among the rest of the town too.


First of all, I'm going to say that you going after me doesn't mean anything considering we're both alive. Face it: from the town's perspective, either you or me are mafia. I don't think you're intimidated to go up against me at all. If you were, you would have killed me earlier on. Not to mention, if I was mafia, why would I go after you? I too know you're a very strong player, and as mafia, I wouldn't want to have to rely on winning a debate with you for the win.

Additionally, look how consistently I'VE been going after guilty players. I see you brought hezekiah up in your next paragraph so I'll save it for then, but if anything your "consistency" has blatantly been that of a typical mafia member; consistently wrong speculation used to mislead the town, and it unfortunately worked on Day 2 and 3.



There's such a thing as "too brilliant." I would NEVER risk killing a member of my own team that early in the game. ESPECIALLY after they already lost Helius. You made a point that it was all some massive deception to trick the town, but how much sense does that really make? If I was mafia and wanted hezekiah lynched to look good, why wouldn't I jump at the opportunity to get Trever lynched when the opportunity came up? I wouldn't. Granted, under your logic, that would be part of my "master plan" too, but I've come to learn that giant conspiracies such as that rarely even happen in a game of mafia. If we're going to believe that we can wish away the entire reason why I'm the confirmed innocent, why are we even posting our arguments?

I'm voting for you, and I think you put up an amazing fight as the last mafia member, but if the town looks past my actions and your actions and can honestly say "yeah, white lancer looks innocent and Majora look guilty", then I guess we kinda deserve the loss.

Now that I'm not on a mobile device, to drive my argument home:

Ever since the beginning of the game I've been nothing but helpful to the town. White lancer has been blatantly holding us back, and there is no reason why he should be trusted now. On Day 2, he tried to divert our attention from hezekiah when it seemed blatantly obvious that hezekiah was guilty. He also played a big part in getting Trever lynched.

Going back a bit, an argument white lancer brought up against me was how in Day 2 I tied the votes with my vote for hezekiah. He said that my tying the vote was just some plan to get the Janitor to hide the body of the vigilante kill, which would explain why the Janitor didn't hide a body in Night 2 when the two likely vigilante targets weren't killed.

Question: If I was mafia, what would I have accomplished from trying to hide the vigilante victim's body in that situation? At the time the argument came up, I didn't have enough information to defend myself, but I do now. We now know that Trever was innocent and hezekiah was guilty. We all thought one of those two were going to die from a vigilante kill. That being said, if I was mafia, why would I want to hide any of their roles? This also relates back to your idea of me "throwing hezekiah under the bus"; if I tried to hide hezekiah's body, then it would have made my going after hezekiah utterly pointless.

However, it is much more plausible that you are mafia, and it was your idea to hide the vigilante victim's body. If you were mafia and knew that Trever and hezekiah were innocent and guilty (respectively), you would have gained a LOT from hiding their roles. This idea that it was your plan is reinforced by the idea that you didn't change the vote from a tie, even though you were online and could have done something to change it. You said it was my plan to tie the vote, when anyone could have easily changed that, including yourself. If my plan was to tie it and just kind of hope nobody would change that (as you're suggesting), then that's a pretty terrible plan.

I know this is going backward a bit but I hope it's easy enough to follow what I'm getting at. white lancer was probably right: The Janitor probably did try to hide the bodies of either Trever or Hezekiah; that would explain why no other bodies were hidden that night. If I was mafia, I would have had incentive not to hide the bodies. If white lancer was mafia, he would have had incentive to hide the bodies.

This on top of everything else that's happened this game should by far be more than enough proof that white lancer is mafia.

I think you put up an amazing fight as the last mafia member

False. If I were Mafia this time around, I would have played a freaking terrible game. Let's look at this from the perspective of us both being Mafia, shall we?

Scenario: Hezekiah has just killed Black Yoshi. Feral and Roxas have both declared suspicions of him.

Majora's move: Instantly and emphatically throw hezekiah under the bus, since it looks like he's going down anyway.

Feral says: Majora's condemning of Hezy also shows him to be innosent.

End result: Two Mafia members are down, but at least one member of the Town trusts Majora 100%, guaranteeing his win.

Doesn't seem like 'too brilliant' to me. I've thrown plenty of my own Mafia members under the bus when I've been Mafia. I'm not sure I've defended a fellow Mafia member once. Let's look at this same scenario from the perspective of me being Mafia:

Lancer's move: Defend hezekiah, go on a crusade against one of the best players in the game.

End result: Two possibilities:

1. The Town believes Majora over me (not a small possibility, given how strong Majora is), both hezekiah and I get voted out.

2. I somehow manage to convince the Town to vote Majora out. Unfortunately, I made my move too soon because I targeted Majora before it would have won me the game. The Town sees that Majora was innocent and votes me and hezy out.

Either way, I'd leave FAW to fend for herself as the last Mafia member, and thanks to the roleclaim (which I initiated) she'd have a 50% chance at best of winning the game. Oh, except for the fact that the Governor was still alive (which I would have known), which drops her chances down to 0%. I effectively screw over every single one of my Mafia members.

Seriously, I was going to ask which of these was the better move, but I've realized a better question is: which of these moves makes any freaking sense at all? Not mine, if I were Mafia, and frankly I'm a little insulted that you might think I'd play this game so insanely stupidly.

Ok, fine, you played a terrible game then. Sorry! I was mostly referring to your late game strategies, anyway; the fact that you're still denying mafia even though the odds are against you. It's refreshing, after playing with people who just give up when they're accused.



No, if you're going to try to make me look bad, at least do it factually. I was the first person to voice suspicions of hezekiah. (http://168.144.87.33/~alestan/view.php?post=73153). The only other reply to the thread prior to that was from Roxas, and he explicitly said "I'm not entirely convinced about hezekiah's guilt." This doesn't look like Feral and Roxas calling out hezekiah at all.

You keep saying that I'd throw hezekiah under the bus, and how you've done it before as mafia, but let me ask you: how easy is it to do that at such an early point in the game? Every game when I'm mafia, the hardest part is being able to kill my own members, because you can't just go up in the mafia thread and be like "Hey hezekiah, is it alright if I get you killed to make myself go further in the game?" Maybe this is plausible when it seems like the person has no chance at surviving, but at the start of the Second Day? This isn't a plausible theory at all.



Your move initially was to subtly bring suspicion toward myself and Roxas, and you said that it would only apply if Trever was innocent. This was back when I brought up mild suspicions about Trever, which I still feel you blew out of proportion at the time. You never blatantly called me suspicious until the third day, when you used the argument I referenced in my earlier reply to get me lynched. If you felt you had evidence, I don't see why you wouldn't try to get me lynched.

Your reaction isn't proof at all. Something that's been on my mind since the governor reveal is that the mafia must have known the governor was still alive. Castrael would be a townie, and chief hinted at being the double voter when he was still alive. The mafia knew full well that one of the "townies" was lying and was the governor. I'll admit, your reaction even initially made me think you were possibly innocent, but if it was all an act for the sake of a governor-prevented lynch, it doesn't mean much, and we'd have no way to prove it.

This is true, but it overlooks something very important: if I were Mafia, I would have known that the Governor was voting for me last round. Why would I even think that the Gov would protect me? I'm hoping Feral is good enough at reading people to know that my reaction last round was 100% genuine.

Except, I WASN'T reluctant to roleclaim. Yes, at first I was, but look back to the day when we did. I was reluctant because I didn't want the vigilante to be narrowed down easily. As soon as we had a vigilante roleclaim, I had no objections claiming. I'm sure this was a common thought among the rest of the town too.

This means absolutely nothing. Of course you would go along with the roleclaim once it actually started--the important thing is that you didn't want it to start in the first place. You know full well the strength of the roleclaim strategy and would have endorsed it instantly if you were innocent.

First of all, I'm going to say that you going after me doesn't mean anything considering we're both alive.

It does mean something, though. If I were Mafia, I staked my entire freaking game on getting you voted out from the second or third round. That's a losing strategy because even if I succeeded in getting you voted out, it wouldn't have won me the game and I probably would have been the next one voted out.

I don't think you're intimidated to go up against me at all. If you were, you would have killed me earlier on.

It doesn't matter if I am 'intimidated' to go up against you or not (and I have to admit, it is a little bit daunting), because it still would have been a terrible idea for me to choose you as the person to go up against unless I honestly believed you were Mafia. Seriously, out of everyone here, you would have been the worst pick to pit myself against as Mafia, and you're right, I would have killed you early on.

Not to mention, if I was mafia, why would I go after you? I too know you're a very strong player, and as mafia, I wouldn't want to have to rely on winning a debate with you for the win.

You didn't have a choice--I forced the issue. You only expressed suspicion of me after I did so of you several times, which is a typical reaction of a Mafia member trying to discredit his accuser. I had a choice as to whom I wanted to go against, and if I'm Mafia I made the absolute worst choice imaginable.

Additionally, look how consistently I'VE been going after guilty players.

You've consistently gone after ONE Mafia player. That's it. And it was a Mafia player that was already in danger, as both Feral and Roxas mentioned being suspicious of him before. All your move did was make you look more innocent, which is a plus for the Mafia in the long run.

As for that last paragraph, you're blowing the whole thing out of proportion. It wasn't a 'master plan,' it was a series of good moves taking advantage of the situation at hand. Really not that complicated (predicated mostly on your taking for granted that hezy was going down).

He also played a big part in getting Trever lynched.

Interesting that you mention this when, going back, I remembered that you were the first person to put suspicion on Trever in the first place. That was one of the very first signs that I picked up on from you, and I even said on the second day that if Trever showed up innocent, I was going to be suspicious of you. Lo and behold, immediately after that you made a post tying the vote (conveniently preventing the reveal of Trever as innocent) and backing off your suspicion of Trever a little bit.

Also, what role did I play in getting Trever lynched? I said in the third round that I thought either hezy or Trever were guilty, but I thought you were more suspicious than either of them. I didn't lead the charge against Trever, nor did I cast the final vote for him. You're rewriting history in order to make your case look better.

It's refreshing, after playing with people who just give up when they're accused.

The funny thing is, I tend to give up when I'm Mafia and I know I'm about to go down. Check the last couple of games I was Mafia--when I'm going down, I tend to clam up and not say anything for fear of incriminating my fellow Mafia members. Hmm, it's almost like I'm not playing the same way as I would if I were Mafia this round...

No, if you're going to try to make me look bad, at least do it factually. I was the first person to voice suspicions of hezekiah.

I did do it factually. Feral was suspicious of hezy at the end of the previous day round, and Roxas found his actions suspicious right before you even if he wasn't entirely convinced.

If you felt you had evidence, I don't see why you wouldn't try to get me lynched.

Because of this right here. You're way too good of a debater for me to try to base my entire strategy around getting you voted out. If anyone believes I or anyone else would do that, they're frankly straight up stupid and they're going to lose this game for us.

As for the rest of your points, they're just straight up wrong and an example of you twisting things around to try to make yourself look good. It's 100% plausible that you would throw hezy under the bus so early if other people thought he was suspicious, and you were the one subtly redirecting suspicion towards Trever. I'm already tired of this debate because you're far too good at twisting things to your advantage, so unless I think of something else to say I'm done.

So go ahead, Feral and CtR, and lose this game for us if you honestly believe I would play as Mafia and resign myself to having to deal with stuff like this the entire game. I'm hoping you realize that it just makes no sense whatsoever for me to do what I've done without honestly believing that Majora was Mafia, and everything I've said and done in this game is consistent with that.

The governor was hiding for a reason, and they would have to prove their role eventually. In your eyes, the governor would have to be me or CtR. You must have had reason to believe it was CtR, whether it was because I wouldn't lie about my role in a roleclaim and you know that, or whether it was because CtR seemed likely to lie about his role, or whatever. Regardless, with the governor alive, claiming it by itself wouldn't do anything, and you would have known the governor roleclaim was coming. If CtR just claimed governor without proving it, we'd be jumping all over him with votes. The governor needed to prove his role last round, and since you must have known the governor was alive, you would have known no one was going to be lynched in the round.

Regardless, your "speech" was just you playing it out to the bitter end.



From a townie perspective, the roleclaim startegy would be risky. If the mafia shot the vigilante after the roleclaim, then they'd have a winning ratio right now. They didn't for whatever reason, and we're only here now because Jo Nathan finally followed our advice of shooting hezekiah. YES, there are benefits to the roleclaim, but waiting one round wouldn't have hurt.

Regardless, I have no idea how you could imply that my going after hezekiah was an elaborate ruse, but I wouldn't do something so simple as want a roleclaim. Maybe you just wanted me to do it first, in which case I'm sorry you beat me to the punch, but if I was the cunning mafia member you're making me out to be, I would have gone with a roleclaim immediately, no questions asked.



I said at the very beginning that I only thought Trever was suspicious based on two posts of his, that it wasn't a big suspicion, and was only if we needed to do a "gut instinct" vote instead of a no-kill. I've done this in several games before which turned out right, most notably one where we lynched Roxas on Day 1 based on a gut feeling I had. I dropped suspicion of him WELL before you said you would be suspicious of me if he showed up innocent. Don't twist things around.



TWO mafia players, hezekiah, and you. I KNOW for a fact that you're mafia, because CtR is the governor and Feral is the Doctor. I'm a townie, leaving you and FAW as the last mafia. It's so difficult knowing this and having to put up with it being challenged by someone you know is mafia.

I've had a feeling you were mafia since Day freaking two, and it's only grown into a confirmed positive feeling since CtR revealed. I'm done arguing as well because we're just going in circles from here; I'll just leave it to Feral and CtR to decide.

You must have had reason to believe it was CtR

If I had reason to believe it was CtR, I wouldn't have attempted to vote him out last round because he would have just canceled the votes.

if I was the cunning mafia member you're making me out to be, I would have gone with a roleclaim immediately, no questions asked.

No, you wouldn't have, because a roleclaim was detrimental to the Mafia's chances no matter how you slice it.

I dropped suspicion of him WELL before you said you would be suspicious of me if he showed up innocent.

Lies again--you still said you were going to vote out either him or hezekiah even up to the point I made that post.

As for that last part, I love how you've now slipped to stealing my own arguments. If Feral and CtR can't see through that, well, we never had a chance in this game to begin with.

The basic facts of this game are:

1. My actions make sense if I am innocent and honestly believe Majora to be guilty (go back and check every single post of mine if you want).

2. My actions make no sense if I'm Mafia (because they result in me losing the game no matter what).

3. Majora's actions make sense if he's Mafia (he and hezy were playing a long game--if we voted one of them out we'd trust the other, and vice-versa).

If Feral and CtR actually think about everything that's happened, they'll be able to see that. I think I've done and said everything I need for us to win this match, and it's on them now, so I think I'm done unless there's anything I really need to address.

If Feral and CtR actually think about everything that's happened, they'll see that you're blatantly mafia and I'm blatantly innocent. It's always possible to twist the obvious around to make it fit your own false perspective of things. You say your actions make sense if you're innocent, and I say they don't. I say my actions make sense if I'm innocent, and you say they don't. You say your actions wouldn't make sense if you're guilty, I say they do. I say my actions wouldn't make sense if I'm guilty, you say they would.

We can't change the actions we've done, only twist words around to make it seem like we were both better than we might have been. I'd urge Feral and CtR to go back into the past rounds and observe our actions for themselves. Look for even the smallest details and tear the hell out of them. Don't rely on our interpretation of events, think on your own.

And with that I'm done. For real! Good luck, all.

WHO THE FUCK IS THE GOVERNOR?! THEY SHOULD BE LYNCHED ON PRINCIPLE!

I am SO fucking confused. If CtR is the Gov, why didn't he say so instead of letting base my whole fucking game on his lie. Anyway, I can't read the two of you, so I am taking the confirmed Mafia. Let's see who follows suit.

Oh, and Jo, I am sorry I didn't save you as I planned, but again, the Governor's lie fucked the Hell out of me.

I was so hoping you would save Jo, Feral, and that Jo would take FAW out. If that had happened, we would have had a chance to win even if you guys voted wrong.

Fair enough. FAW is also confirmed mafia, and both white lancer and I agree with that. Don't see any reason why we shouldn't honestly; I just got worked up when white lancer targeted me initially.

So, either one of you is lying about not being Gov, or one Mafia just threw the other under the bus.

Me and Jo were actually working together. The plan was for me to save Jo, so he could off CtR, but when it was revealed that the Gov was still alive, it threw off my game and I got scared. Wish I went along with it...

Anyway, we will see who the Mafia kills today.

Oh, and by the way, the Governor (CtR) just saved the game last round. Majora had it set up so that you guys would lynch me and the Vig would probably off CtR, ensuring a Mafia win.

Seriously white lancer?

Yeah, CtR saved the game definitely, but it has nothing to do with you or me being mafia. Don't try to oversimplify things with a lie just to get on Feral's good side. You've clearly been the most suspicious for days now.

Yes, seriously, Majora. It really is that simple--CtR gave the Town a second shot at this game. The Town still could have won when I went down if Jo had hit you or FAW last night, but you had it set up so CtR was a good alternate target. Very well played.

Whatever. It's just painfully obvious that you're the last mafia, I'm not even going to bother any more until the next round starts, since it's technically over now.

Somebody's a little miffed that CtR screwed up his plan last round, and that I saw through it. :P

I ain't even mad! Unless you live through the next round. Then I'll be mad :(.

How frustrated do you think I'll be if you make it through next round? Seriously, I feel like the kid with his finger in the dike, yelling to warn the Town that they're in danger, only to have no one listen to me. I'm going to be bummed if I sniffed you out on Day 2 for nothing.

Anyway, I can't read the two of you, so I am taking the confirmed Mafia. Let's see who follows suit.

Well that really sucks Feral, cause I was counting on just following your vote.